Holy Rollers

I just saw this on Kickstarter:

Holy Rollers: a Documentary about Card Counting Christians

Among the quotes from the trailer:

"Anyone who seriously wants to be a disciple of Jesus should learn blackjack..."

This is supposed to be playing in Oxford, MS at their Film Festival in a few weeks. I really want to go see it, unfortunately I'll be studying for the CPA Exam. I find it interesting that as soon as it turns into a +EV game it's okay to play.

I wonder how the 10% tithe cuts into the house edge?????

Dude this sounds awesome, where do I sign up?!?

Quote: FrGamble

Dude this sounds awesome, where do I sign up?!?

After 12 years of Catholic school, I feel the need to warn you Father that these men were protestants, so.....
;)

The movie is available today. I'm debating on whether to rent or buy.

Holy Rollers

Thanks ME for the heads up on the movie.

Quote:

I feel the need to warn you Father that these men were protestants, so.....
;)

The Catholic Holy Roller was Father Fahey. See his story here:

Well, I rented the movie on iTunes and it was the best movie I've seen in a long time. I tend to like documentaries and gambling, so this one was right up my alley.

Me no get it.
If he filmed Bible-thumping Card Counters who took the casinos for millions... why can't he get his paltry sum from the now-rich Bible thumpers he filmed?

Well, it is not all positive as they go through major swings. Also, they had to borrow money and find investors, which isn't free. I don't think anyone got rich, but they had a job for 3 years that gave them time to do other things. They also run into issues with members playing poorly and other drama.

Yeah. Thumping well but counting poorly.
Me now savvy.

looks interesting, renting it tonight !!!

Here's an Op-Ed on CNN yesterday from one of the featured players

Holy Rollers Ben and Colin were on Gambling with an Edge last night (Oct 11). I must confess that I did not hold back some of my anti-religious opinions. So, did I come off as a jerk? I'd be interested in your comments and thoughts.

Quote: CrystalMath

The movie is available today. I'm debating on whether to rent or buy.

Holy Rollers

Thanks ME for the heads up on the movie.

Rented it on iTunes a couple of months ago - interesting, but nothing to write home about. The Wizard's hard-hitting interview really had them on their heels. As a devout non-believer, I am glad the Wizard took them to task.

Quote: FrGamble

Dude this sounds awesome, where do I sign up [to join the Holy Rollers]?!?

I would recommend not signing up, if you attempt to mix spirituality and gambling as a "good thing."
Casting lots [gambling] in His name is spiritually and religiously perverse. He threw the money changers out of the temple. Look at this Holy Roller.
I try very hard to avoid having a "George Carlin" view of the church, and a lot of priests and monks and sisters ain't helping.
Return God's things to God, and redeem Caesar's things at....Caesars Palace's cage.
At times a casino can be my temple, I'd be the first to admit this, but by NO stretch of the imagination do I assign any spiritual or religious link to this behavior, any more than I do doing Jello shots.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

They [Holy Roller card-counters] have a bunch of "how to" videos on youtube.

I suppose they do. Doesn't validate their self-proclaimed "holiness."
The Islamists also have a bunch of training materials - on how to build bombs, kill infidels, supress critical thinking, and severely oppress females, etc., also as a holy endeavor by their own beliefs.

I don't believe this can be rationally justified either. Maniacally - yes. Rationally - no!
The concept of the "casino as the unholy [infidel] enemy" to be destroyed by patronizing them, I find as a VERY flawed concept and endeavor.

What are we talking here?
- "Backed off for Jesus' sake?"
- "86-ed for Jesus?"
- "I Lost my ass for Jesus?"
- "Won by methods that are unacceptable by the house and by my faith - but for Jesus's cause?" And divy up the booty for Jesus, too? It's like the muslim Afghans selling opium and smack to Russia to support their temple. Their God will not approve this in the end, though they believe this in their lives now as a holy mission, along with a lot of other questionable actions.

I'm not buying it. At the very least, it is an utterly deceiptful basis for a spiritually claim basis, disagreed with by Christ's teachings and by Apostolic scripture.
I think it is a heaping pile of Crockfords, - which just ripped off Phil Ivey, and not for Christ's sake.

There are MANY Moromons in gaming who do not gamble, and view the gaming industry as a valid secular job. But I respect them for not trying to "Holify" the gaming endeavor aside from their secular jobs, - woithout it being a religious cause.


I believe that you CAN be a Christian (but not clergy), by doing this, as many faithful are redeemable as being human with their heads in a temporarily dark or misguided place. But to say "Counting and Gambling for Jesus" is scriptural

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I was only commenting that they have some videos on youtube. I really don't care about their religious or moral beliefs.

I totally get you, Aces. I fully agree.

But I am going a tad further, to say there is Malarkey in their Holy positions. I started to care because I felt that their positions were more than "just misguided" to be ignored, - but both destructive and assinine - NOT holy.

deleted

I don't think you came off as a jerk. You asked the questions that should have been asked in the documentary. I agree with Ben, one of the Christians, that the movie sensationalized the money while skirting over most of the religious contradictions.

Although I enjoyed the movie, I was disappointed later to find that there were several more non Christians in the group than the movie indicated, because this undermined the premise that they could trust everyone in the group because of their faith. Conversely, I enjoyed Ben's humility in admitting that he had lied to the group and that he didn't know any truly honest people.

Good interview.

Quote: Wizard

Holy Rollers Ben and Colin were on Gambling with an Edge last night (Oct 11). I must confess that I did not hold back some of my anti-religious opinions. So, did I come off as a jerk? I'd be interested in your comments and thoughts.

I don't think you came across as rude necessarily, just maybe a bit unnecessarily confrontational at first. I think they handled the interview very well. I have two major gripes regarding your gripes with the church team.

1. Your career isn't necessarily your contribution to the world. This is the same flawed logic that people use to write off professional gambling as unethical or unproductive in general. I think Ben and Colin's response to this was fantastic—they waited tables before, which provides a service, sure, but it's hardly "doing God's work." By being pro gamblers, they were probably able to spend more time with their families and friends, which is ostensibly what modern Christianity is about anyway. You're attempting to impose a false dichotomy on them simply for being Christian. Just as I don't believe that Atheism precludes a strong sense of ethics, I don't believe that self-proclaimed Christians are necessarily hypocrites for not making a career of their religion.

2. The foundation of most of your attacks on the religious nature of the team seemed to be based on interpretation of the Bible, like the thing about God supposedly contacting two separate people in the case of the player who was alleged to be stealing. Although I feel that religion in general is fundamentally at odds with logic and reason, it's not impossible for mostly logical, reasonable people to follow one of the major religions. This doesn't mean that they have to know all of the intricacies of every minute detail, just that they believe in the basic message that they feel their religion represents. There are many very good arguments against religion in general, but I think that trying to catch someone being a hypocrite by citing some of the more clearly ridiculous references in their religious text of choice is a pretty weak one (unless they are vociferously defending one aspect while conveniently ignoring others, a la anti-gay rights activists who cling onto one or two passages while completely ignoring dozens of other completely inane ones).

I was very interested to hear Ben's explanation of the whole Benjamin issue. In the doc, you could see him trying to manage the situation in the most reasonable way possible while confronted with what I believe he saw as a truly unreasonable situation. His explanation in the interview was very telling and ultimately made me respect his decision more than I did based on the movie alone.

Overall, I'm always surprised to learn about APs who hold strong religious beliefs, as I tend to think of APs as highly-analytical, logical people and I feel that religion is totally counterintuitive to these kinds of traits. I can't understand how anyone can reconcile even a basic understanding of probability and statistical principles with a belief in organized religion. But I feel that Colin and Ben did a very good job of representing their case on the show. A good show all around!

Quote: Wizard

Holy Rollers Ben and Colin were on Gambling with an Edge last night (Oct 11). I must confess that I did not hold back some of my anti-religious opinions. So, did I come off as a jerk? I'd be interested in your comments and thoughts.

I'm an agnostic, but personally respect religious people, and I thought you were strong but were not insulting in any way.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Your career isn't necessarily your contribution to the world. This is the same flawed logic that people use to write off professional gambling as unethical or unproductive in general. I think Ben and Colin's response to this was fantastic—they waited tables before, which provides a service, sure, but it's hardly "doing God's work." By being pro gamblers, they were probably able to spend more time with their families and friends, which is ostensibly what modern Christianity is about anyway. You're attempting to impose a false dichotomy on them simply for being Christian. Just as I don't believe that Atheism precludes a strong sense of ethics, I don't believe that self-proclaimed Christians are necessarily hypocrites for not making a career of their religion.

I have no problem with anybody working for a casino or the gaming business in some way. For the vast majority, gambling is a form of recreation and entertainment, which when done in moderation is perfectly fine. While I would prefer to not have to sell ads to casinos, but something has to put rice on my table. I look at my life as teaching the world about math and how to lose less money in the casinos. For that, I make no apologies.

The way I judge a soul, no matter what faith, is what did they give to society minus what they consumed from it. I look at the Holy Rollers and see consumption only. I also never said that Christians had to make a career of their faith. Any job where they are contributing to society and doing it well is all I can ask. Waiting tables is a perfectly respectable occupation.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

The foundation of most of your attacks on the religious nature of the team seemed to be based on interpretation of the Bible, like the thing about God supposedly contacting two separate people in the case of the player who was alleged to be stealing. Although I feel that religion in general is fundamentally at odds with logic and reason, it's not impossible for mostly logical, reasonable people to follow one of the major religions. This doesn't mean that they have to know all of the intricacies of every minute detail, just that they believe in the basic message that they feel their religion represents. There are many very good arguments against religion in general, but I think that trying to catch someone being a hypocrite by citing some of the more clearly ridiculous references in their religious text of choice is a pretty weak one (unless they are vociferously defending one aspect while conveniently ignoring others, a la anti-gay rights activists who cling onto one or two passages while completely ignoring dozens of other completely inane ones).

I thought it was a pretty well-known passage in Christianity that when god wishes to convey a message he will tell the same thing to two independent people. I was just trying to ask if they considered that verse when the accusation was made about a particular member.

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I think Wiz did a great job asking some tough questions and also think "Ben" did an admirable job of responding. When reading the post prior to hearing the Show, I was expecting a real scorching by Wiz.

Too many times you will see religious individuals dodging the tough questions as opposed to responding in a logical manner even if part of the answer is simply "that is the role Faith plays in my life" when human logic can't support a belief position.

In no way was I offended by the Wiz's questioning and I do my best to be a follower of Christ. As opposed to being "jerk-like", Wiz's questioning and logic were more convicting than anything else.

I agree with Lonesome as well, your personal faith cannot always be logically supported. It is what you believe is right for reasons you cannot necessarily prove. I know, not a great story to tell in a Forum dedicated to logic and mathematical acumen, but it is part of what faith is about.

Wiz's comments about the two groups that do an effective job spreading their faith was spot on. The Mormon's and Jehovah's Witnesses are excellent at this and it is a fundamental part of the faith walk. Kudos to both groups and I would go on to say that I have friends, close ones in fact, as members of both of these faiths. I have yet to meet a Mormon or JW that I have not thought was a good person that took time to care about others (of course the sample size is small, so don't get on me for that, it simply is what I have experienced).

Alright, that is enough on the religious stuff, aren't you starting another site for this, Wiz?

I thought the guys were pretty honest about the possible conflict between faith and counting cards. Their attitude seemed to be: "We think this is OK but we understand the serious objections that could be raised." They seemed open to input and also seemed to be wrestling with the issues themselves. If they are not 100% convinced it is the right thing to do, this seems like a humble, fair way to approach the issue.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Quote: Wizard

Holy Rollers Ben and Colin were on Gambling with an Edge last night (Oct 11). I must confess that I did not hold back some of my anti-religious opinions. So, did I come off as a jerk? I'd be interested in your comments and thoughts.

I don't think you came across as rude necessarily, just maybe a bit unnecessarily confrontational at first. I think they handled the interview very well. I have two major gripes regarding your gripes with the church team.

1. Your career isn't necessarily your contribution to the world. This is the same flawed logic that people use to write off professional gambling as unethical or unproductive in general.

In Mike's case, his career in gaming is a contribution to the world. He has changed the face of gambling for players and industry executives alike, - that it is now to a greater degree a field or discipline with well-analyzed and thought out practices and techniques that are rational, - and without claim of it being a holy endeavor, just a professional endeavor. He is a very big part of this gaming evolution.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

I think Ben and Colin's response to this was fantastic—they waited tables before, which provides a service, sure, but it's hardly "doing God's work." By being pro gamblers, they were probably able to spend more time with their families and friends, which is ostensibly what modern Christianity is about anyway.

No - this is quite unlikely - the hours of a pro gambler are absurd, and are generally uncompatible with a family life. Read accounts of card counters' lives, and you will see this time-crunch trend. By comparison, a steady schedule of a time-clock worker or server is steady, reliable, and consistent, and is compatible with family schedules. And Christianity does not have the patent on "being a responsible family member." All religions, as well as secular social norms, address this.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

You're attempting to impose a false dichotomy on them simply for being Christian.

No - they, the Holy Rollers are!

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Just as I don't believe that Atheism precludes a strong sense of ethics...

Atheism or secular thought allows for critical thinking, analysis, and discussion without religious restriction, censorship, or dogma silencing dialogue that is based on critical thinking.

Ethics, Critical Thinking, and Philosophy are secular disciplines - and are more compatible with atheism and secularism than they are with a religious basis.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

I don't believe that self-proclaimed Christians are necessarily hypocrites for not making a career of their religion.

The Holy Rollers are making a bizarre career of being "Card Counters [casino gamblers] for Christ." What's next? Madams for Jesus - as the order of Magdalene sisters? [Mary Magdalene was a reformed prostitute, not an active one.] There are Meth Gangs in Mexico that use a Catholic Christian premise for their business dealings, and I do not buy this stretch either.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

2. The foundation of most of your attacks on the religious nature of the team seemed to be based on interpretation of the Bible, like the thing about God supposedly contacting two separate people in the case of the player who was alleged to be stealing.

Certainly it is known by all involved that card-counting is not sactioned by casino operators.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Although I feel that religion in general is fundamentally at odds with logic and reason, it's not impossible for mostly logical, reasonable people to follow one of the major religions. This doesn't mean that they have to know all of the intricacies of every minute detail, just that they believe in the basic message that they feel their religion represents. There are many very good arguments against religion in general, but I think that trying to catch someone being a hypocrite by citing some of the more clearly ridiculous references in their religious text of choice is a pretty weak one (unless they are vociferously defending one aspect while conveniently ignoring others, a la anti-gay rights activists who cling onto one or two passages while completely ignoring dozens of other completely inane ones).

The problem is that religion (or at least some religious leaders or spokesmen representing a religion] CAN too often be at odds with logic, critical thinking, and reason in a "call to thoughtless passion" sense. Now Gambling, especially practices of Gambling that involve malfeasance when mixed with a religious justification, can reasonably be called hypocritical, or not spiritual or religiously valid by the tennants of spiritual practices and by mainstream Christian teachings. Unless of course, you are a member of the Church of the 6-deck Shoe or the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Dan, good response, but you do realize I'm a professional gambler, right? I've got a pretty good feel of the lifestyle. I will admit that my girlfriend does gripe about the frequent out-of-town ventures, but it's a very liberating way to live. I've never been cut out for the traditional grind.

And Wiz, I hope you didn't take offense with my comments. I think you and I are on the same page, I just don't fault people for no being a 100% perfect representation of their religious ideology (ironic, since I am highly critical of religion in general, but hey). I'm very glad that you asked some tough questions, and I'm also glad that Ben and Colin answered them in a fairly genuine, honest manner.

Quote: LonesomeGambler

Dan, good response, but you do realize I'm a professional gambler, right? I've got a pretty good feel of the lifestyle. I will admit that my girlfriend does gripe about the frequent out-of-town ventures, but it's a very liberating way to live. I've never been cut out for the traditional grind.

And Wiz, I hope you didn't take offense with my comments. I think you and I are on the same page, I just don't fault people for no being a 100% perfect representation of their religious ideology (ironic, since I am highly critical of religion in general, but hey). I'm very glad that you asked some tough questions, and I'm also glad that Ben and Colin answered them in a fairly genuine, honest manner.

Lonesome, no prob. :)
Hours and shifts and travel in the gaming industry affect both sides of the table. It is NOT like being an accountant with a steady 9-to-5 corporate position and a steady paycheck. Not the best for family life. But we do it for the "Left Hand Path" lifestyle.

And I thought Mike S. had good to-the-point sketicism - which is the type of questioning that the Holy Rollers would have to face in spades anyway.

So Dan, does this mean you now admit card counting
is a viable way to make a living at the casinos expense?
You've said a hundred times that card counting is a thing
of the past and casinos are way to smart now, nobody
is making any money at it.

I have a sister who is the polar opposite of me, religionwise. She lives within walking distance of Pechanga but will not set foot inside, even though they have a AAA 4 Diamond property where she could work. She travels half an hour to work for another restaurant instead. But she let her daughter date a much older guy when she was 15 and I won't let my kids date until they're 16. It's funny how differently we see things. I'd rather work close to home and keep a close eye on my kids than dismiss a casino as immoral like she does.

Quote: Paigowdan

It is NOT like being an accountant with a steady 9-to-5 corporate position and a steady paycheck.

I wish being an accountant was 9-5 :-).......it is much more cyclical based on deadlines. Some months 12+ hour days 6-7 days a week, other months you can sneak out at noon to play golf and not work weekends.

But your point is well taken, a normal 9-5 job leadas to a more consistent time with spouse and/or family.

deleted

Quote: EvenBob

So Dan, does this mean you now admit card counting
is a viable way to make a living at the casinos expense?
You've said a hundred times that card counting is a thing
of the past and casinos are way to smart now, nobody
is making any money at it.

No, never said that.
People will try what they try, usually not successfully, but they will try, apparently with some fanfare at times.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, never said that.

I guess I misunderstood you all those times.

Quote: EvenBob

I guess I misunderstood you all those times.

Yes, I would say so.
I have always taken the position that card counting is not the best or a particularly viable career choice, especially in gaming itself, and is a thing of the past (it's glory days are LONG gone) - but is often practiced, and is used as a stepping stone.

Quote: Paigowdan

Yes, I would say so.

You said this on May 1st.

there really isn't any more real glory or success to casino card counting anymore, except on such a trivial level below the radar, that it is nothing of any major importance anymore anyway.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/9620-which-cheating-is-worse-dice-influence-or-counting-bj/13/#post143228

Yes, I did say that.
"There isn't any more real glory or success to casino card counting anymore." And I stand by it. So your point is what, exactly?
And where exactly is the glory for the Holy Rollers?
Glory in God? Would HE think these shenanigans are Holy?
In getting backed off?
In getting grilled on radio shows?

Quote: Paigowdan

Glory in God? Would HE think these shenanigans are Holy?

They're not unholy, thats the point. The Bible says
obey the law, its doesn't give a list of jobs that
you shouldn't be doing. Taking hundreds of thousands
from a place thats taking it from others anyway, isn't
unethical or illegal if you're counting cards.

Wizard I just listened to your show with the Holy Rollers and I thought your questions were good and it seems like all together a pretty good show you've got going there. Your main objection I think puts too a little too much emphasis on the work of the Christian in the effort to save the world or an individual person from Hell. Certainly as Christians we should be always a witness to the love of God wherever we are or what ever we do - from waiting tables to playing cards - however I think God's message is not only dependent on us, meaning the messengers (thank God!), it is also dependent on the hearer. Jesus uses the example of sowing the seed. Once sown the seed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ needs to grow in the person who heard it and just like the farmer there is nothing I or anyone else can do to make the seed grow sooner. There are lots of reasons people don't hear and believe but it is not often because Christians have been too lazy to spread the Word. The parable to read on this is Luke 8:4-15.

Quote: FrGamble

Luke 8:4-15.

"But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble
and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by
persevering produce a crop."

A crop of what, new converts? Is Jesus the inventor
of the Ponzi scheme?

Quote: FrGamble

Wizard I just listened to your show with the Holy Rollers and I thought your questions were good and it seems like all together a pretty good show you've got going there. Your main objection I think puts too a little too much emphasis on the work of the Christian in the effort to save the world or an individual person from Hell. Certainly as Christians we should be always a witness to the love of God wherever we are or what ever we do - from waiting tables to playing cards - however I think God's message is not only dependent on us, meaning the messengers (thank God!), it is also dependent on the hearer. Jesus uses the example of sowing the seed. Once sown the seed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ needs to grow in the person who heard it and just like the farmer there is nothing I or anyone else can do to make the seed grow sooner. There are lots of reasons people don't hear and believe but it is not often because Christians have been too lazy to spread the Word. The parable to read on this is Luke 8:4-15.

Thanks for listening to the show father. I never said that spreading god's word is only a function of the messenger. Of course the recipient has to make a decision, I would say leap of faith, to accept it. My point is that Christians should at least be out there broadcasting seed, in the hope that just a small percentage of them take root in fertile soil.

However, I do accuse Christians, in general, of being too lazy in saving non-believers from the pit of hell. Even if reaching out to somebody would have a one in a million chance of saving them, wouldn't it be worth it? However, as I said on the show, somebody takes the trouble to knock on my door only about once or twice a year. The last time I was approached on the street was in 2007 in Hong Kong. If a Christian believes in the doctrine of eternal hell then I think they should be out trying to save people from it with the same kind of urgency as if they (the unbelievers) were about to step on a rattlesnake nest.

Father, keep in mind I'm attacking the Protestant doctrine of hell, with says it is eternal and there are no second chances after you die. Your version I find much more appealing.

actually, Michael, I'm glad you are not a member of some faith that believes in knocking on the doors. I can see you would be out there driving everybody nuts.

I hate Proselytizing!

Now, I am not worthy of any standing as a Christian, but undeniably it is my background and part of me to some degree. One example of something that I guess a Christian should applaud, but I hate, is "converting the heathen". In other words, I applaud totally the modern notion that those handful of humans in the Amazon today that live untouched by civilization, should just remain that: untouched and indeed unconverted.

I have found that the Jehovah's Witnesses are too pushy and are generally unwilling to engage a person in non-topical conversation. In my opinion, if you want my soul, you have to be willing to bullshit with me for awhile.

I really like the Mormons, though, I believe you are supposed to become an Elder when you are nineteen (if you are already of the faith) so these are generally younger, idealistic and intelligent guys that come calling for my soul. In addition to that, they are generally willing to engage in non-topical conversation and have something approaching a formal Debate when it comes to Religion. They're also trained very well, so expect a good Debate, but most importantly, both sides are willing to admit when a question has been posed that cannot be answered.

I like the Mormons so much, in fact, that I keep a small can of Decaf coffee and a box of Decaf teabags in case they come by to visit so they can have a hot drink. Mormons will not deliberately consume caffeine, and actually, it seems that they will refuse anything you offer them (except water) unless you absolutely insist and show them that what you are offering is Decaf.

Wiz it certainly would be my hope that those guys were spreading seed in the casino when they were counting and working together. I have always been amazed how often being polite and kind in a casino can make a big difference and more than once has lead to a good discussion about God, with both players and dealers. Christians need to be like those seed machines that are constantly kicking out seeds in all directions wherever they go from casinos to churches and everywhere in between. Often those seeds can be spread without saying a word.

I think I understand your point about accusing Christians of being lazy. If I thought God was going to have the same mercy and forgiveness of a rattlesnake I would either be going around with a squirt gun filled with holy water baptizing everyone whether they liked it or not or I would be an atheist.

It was a good show, thanks for turning me on to it. When is it on and how can I listen to it? You are awesome.

Quote: Wizard

However, I do accuse Christians, in general, of being too lazy in saving non-believers from the pit of hell.

Christians don't really believe in hell anymore.
In the 1930's all you heard in church was hellfire
and brimstone. But after WWII, and people were
becoming more educated, hell was starting to
be a hard sell, so the Church became more friendly.

Jesus is now your friend, he's not looking to send
you to hell for looking at your neighbors wifes ass.
Its worked too, churhes have never been so popular.
You can go every Sunday and never hear hell mentioned,
I read an article about it a few years ago. Some pastors
don't even believe hell exists.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2065289,00.html

Quote: EvenBob

Christians don't really believe in hell anymore.

That would be a pretty liberal stance among Protestants, and I would argue is not what the bible says.

Quote: John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I'd be interested to hear from the Christians on the forum on this topic.

Quote: Wizard

That would be a pretty liberal stance among Protestants, and I would argue is not what the bible says.



I'd be interested to hear from the Christians on the forum on this topic.

The guy who Bob quoted is a HUGE outlier and most Christians think he is wrong. I am no longer a Christian but I grew up among them and counted my self among them until about the age of 16 or 17, and I can tell you in the Church where I grew up, hell was a very real belief.

Quote: Wizard

I have no problem with anybody working for a casino or the gaming business in some way. For the vast majority, gambling is a form of recreation and entertainment, which when done in moderation is perfectly fine. While I would prefer to not have to sell ads to casinos, but something has to put rice on my table. I look at my life as teaching the world about math and how to lose less money in the casinos. For that, I make no apologies.

The way I judge a soul, no matter what faith, is what did they give to society minus what they consumed from it. I look at the Holy Rollers and see consumption only. I also never said that Christians had to make a career of their faith. Any job where they are contributing to society and doing it well is all I can ask. Waiting tables is a perfectly respectable occupation.

Wiz, does this mean that you also judge poorly those whose career is solely AP, independent of the context of the Church Team? I find this surprising as you have not previously mentioned it when the numerous discussions about the morality of AP come up. I understand that it's a totally defensible viewpoint that you don't disapprove of AP itself on moral grounds, but think that someone who does only that with their life has made a poor moral decision...is that it?

Quote:

I thought it was a pretty well-known passage in Christianity that when god wishes to convey a message he will tell the same thing to two independent people. I was just trying to ask if they considered that verse when the accusation was made about a particular member.

I don't believe this is correct. I haven't studied the bible for about 10 years, but in all my training and instruction in the Bible (and I got a lot of it, attending Christian school from K-12, as well as church on Sunday and Awana/youth group one night a week), I don't recall this being mentioned.

Quote: AcesAndEights

The guy who Bob quoted is a HUGE outlier and most Christians think he is wrong. .

Which carries as much weight as my dog
worrying about what my cat thinks.