UltimateHoldem
UltimateHoldem
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:58:40 AM permalink
Quote: P90

They did burn (discard) the cards that were dealt after the split, didn't they? Or did they actually put it back in play as if he doubled with same exact cards?

In the latter case he would know dealer's next card exactly (being his second split card).



The 4's were split and an Ace was dealt to his first 4, making 5/15. The cards were then put all together, 4/4/A, 9/19. How would he know the next cards out?
P90
P90
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January 18th, 2012 at 7:32:53 AM permalink
Quote: UltimateHoldem

The 4's were split and an Ace was dealt to his first 4, making 5/15. The cards were then put all together, 4/4/A, 9/19. How would he know the next cards out?


What was dealt to his second 4? Unless both times the deal was stopped before anything was dealt, which is doubtful with a skilled=quick dealer.

If the cards are redealt in the same order, that second 4 card would go to the dealer. So he'd know 2 of the dealer's cards, only hole card excepted.
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 18th, 2012 at 7:38:01 AM permalink
Quote: UltimateHoldem

Obviously I know to split 4's against a dealer 6. In most cases however you don't know that your card will be an Ace for 19. My whole question was aimed at the decision after it was dealt.

Although I didn't fully indicate it in my third post above, the optimal strategy at that point was to claim that he intended to double.

I.E. At that point, the optimal strategy is to knowingly cheat.


Quote: P90

What was dealt to his second 4? Unless both times the deal was stopped before anything was dealt, which is doubtful with a skilled=quick dealer.

Doubtful?

On the contrary. Both times, the dealer waited, as he should, for instructions to hit/stand/double, after the first card was dealt. It was at THAT point where the player initiated his cheat.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
teddys
teddys
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January 18th, 2012 at 7:47:49 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Although I didn't fully indicate it in my third post above, the optimal strategy at that point was to claim that he intended to double.

I.E. At that point, the optimal strategy is to knowingly cheat.

...

On the contrary. Both times, the dealer waited, as he should, for instructions to hit/stand/double, after the first card was dealt. It was at THAT point where the player initiated his cheat.



How are you going to prove the player cheated, DJ? The dealer did not wait for a hand instruction immediately after the first two 4s were dealt. The player could have wanted to split or double at that point. The dealer assumed split, which he shouldn't have. The player gave no hand signal, merely put money forward.

The dealer waited after the third card was dealt, AS HE SHOULD HAVE AFTER THE FIRST TWO CARDS WERE DEALT, expecting the player to double on Ace-4. The act of putting forward more money does not in and of itself indicate the player's intent. There also must be a hand signal when there is more than one possibility for the action. (Hence, the ubiquitous "one finger" gesture used to indicate a double on 5,5).

It is not cheating; it is shot-taking, and taking advantage of poor dealing procedure. I wouldn't think to do it, but it is pretty clever.

Where is Dan to weigh in on this?
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
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January 18th, 2012 at 7:57:39 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear


Doubtful?

On the contrary. Both times, the dealer waited, as he should, for instructions to hit/stand/double, after the first card was dealt.



I agree, especially since the right play at that point would have been to double the soft 5 (or, apparently, reconstitute the 19)
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P90
P90
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January 18th, 2012 at 8:04:05 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

the dealer waited, as he should, for instructions to hit/stand/double, after the first card was dealt.


Ah, right. I have misunderstood the situation.
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 18th, 2012 at 8:09:46 AM permalink
Quote: teddys

How are you going to prove the player cheated, DJ?

Simple. Check the tapes to see if he ever doubled, or even hesitated as if he was thinking about it, when he had 6,2 or 5,3 vs a dealer 6.

Quote: teddys

The act of putting forward more money does not in and of itself indicate the player's intent. There also must be a hand signal when there is more than one possibility for the action. (Hence, the ubiquitous "one finger" gesture used to indicate a double on 5,5).

I agree, but sometimes lazy players along with lazy dealers will make too many assumptions.

Quote: teddys

Where is Dan to weigh in on this?

Probably sleeping. He usually works the late shift.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
P90
P90
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January 18th, 2012 at 8:11:52 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Simple. Check the tapes to see if he ever doubled, or even hesitated as if he was thinking about it, when he had 6,2 or 5,3 vs a dealer 6.


Well, at least he wasn't counting! It seems like casinos are much more paranoid about counters than they are about hole-carders and shot-takers (who are the real APs these days).
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teddys
teddys
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January 18th, 2012 at 8:20:35 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Simple. Check the tapes to see if he ever doubled, or even hesitated as if he was thinking about it, when he had 6,2 or 5,3 vs a dealer 6.

This is not highly probative, in my opinion. He could simply claim that he wished to double only on 4,4 -- some superstition. Past practice does not necessarily indicate future intent.

Then again, I may be reading too much equity into this. Casino "laws" generally are in favor of the house. I am surprised the player got away with this.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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January 18th, 2012 at 8:36:40 AM permalink
Quote: teddys

This is not highly probative, in my opinion. He could simply claim that he wished to double only on 4,4 -- some superstition. Past practice does not necessarily indicate future intent.

Then again, I may be reading too much equity into this. Casino "laws" generally are in favor of the house. I am surprised the player got away with this.



Yes I'm very surprised that he got away with it the 2nd time. The first time maybe, but after that the dealers dealing to him should have been instructed to be strict on the hand signals...2 fingers for split, 1 for double down.
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