6/5 blackjack

Ok 21forme, so here's the story (never told it before), I am sure it will be long. There used to be a lot of those 5 seat video blackjack games all over Vegas that were countable. Not for huge money, but a few bucks an hour, especially if you could find minimums of $2 or $3 dollars or occasionally even $1 and you could earn points doing so. Shortly after I moved here, I was living in a condo at Flamingo and Koval a block off the strip. So one day I was playing some video poker at Westin, where I stopped frequently, just because it was on the way to strip and home, when I recognized this guy playing the 5 seat video blackjack as Stanford Wong. Up until that moment I had never given a thought to the video blackjack that was all over town, but I knew if he was playing, it must be beatable.

So I sat down next to him and played, we struck up a conversation and sure enough he taught me how, that the shuffle point was when the dealers switched. Most games in Vegas were set up this way. A couple like at the Palms and Excalibur and maybe one or two more, actually showed a shuffle, I guess to make the game seem realistic, but most didn't show a shuffle and the shuffle point was at the dealer switch. So I started playing these games all over. I can name some places, because those games are all gone. Circus Circus, Imperial Palace, MGM, M resort, Palms, Excalibur, Palms, El Cortez, The D, The Plaza, Terribles/Silver Seven to name a few. I am sure there are more not coming to mind and one that I am not mentioning because they still have that version.

So one by one these games started dropping off either disappearing or replaced in recent years by a newer generation. At first many places reduced payouts to 6:5, which technically you could still beat, because you could use a $2- $100 spread at a lot of places, but at that point you are really winning almost nothing and experiencing a lot of variance to get there.

At the start of this year I was down to playing 3 of these games (still first generation), El Cortez, Silver Seven and the third I won't mention. El Cortez switched to the newer generation early in the year before the shutdown (maybe late last year) and Silver seven first stopped giving points and then went 6:5.

So after the shutdown several new, newer generation games popped up and I played a few up them just to see if I could determine anything and so far I haven't. Since I don't know the shuffle I count by keeping track of the last 4 rounds individually and adding them together. This is sometimes known as the lazy man's count. I am sure it is not enough to play a winning game. It is like playing with very shallow penetration. But I have done pretty well playing 3 or 4 of these games since casinos re-opened. I am sure it is just the one instance of good variance, I have had this year combined with a small sample size.

So the place I was talking of specifically has a game right in front of the regular blackjack pit. This is a low roller type place and their regular blackjack pays 6:5 on $5 minimum blackjack and 3:2 on $10 and higher and being that there is only 2 $10 or higher tables at most times, I sometimes have to wait a few minutes to get to a table. Playing this video game lets me do that without being so obvious. AS a matter of fact the regular tables are so close, I could actually track them from the video game (something you and I have discussed many times), except that has become much more difficult in these post covid times with limited seats.

So anyway this casino didn't open when most re-opened, they didn't reopen until September and I have played this newer generation video game 3-4 times with strong results using my "lazy man's running count". Again I am sure just good variance. However, like I said when I started this discussion, last time I played, I received a BJ and pushed with the dealers 3 card 21. I guess that hadn't come up in the few previous sessions, so that renders this particular game unplayable for me now too.

Good story, KJ! Interesting on recognizing Stanford in the wild :-) My copy of Prof BJ is signed by him. Brought it with me to one of the GC parties 10+ years ago and he was kind enough to sign it for me.

I've never looked at these games in the past, but recently did. The ones I've seen have no recognizable shuffle point, so I just kept walking. I, too, have played low denom machines strategically positioned so I could count down a table and jump in when the time was right.

It is low roller stuff, but I have done and even continue to do some low roller stuff, that earns much less than my normal blackjack play hourly. For a real advantage player, part of the thrill is just beating the casino, even if it is small amounts. You just have to make sure it doesn't take too much time away from bigger stuff.

Here is a couple other things I have done:

Palms used to mail out a little coupon booklet quarterly, to everyone....just regular mail advertising. The book had lots of food coupon, but also contained 4, $10 match plays, 2 blackjack and 2 roulette, each good for a 6 week period during that quarter. So on the day I received my booklet, I could score 15-20 more booklets just from the trash can in the mail room of my condo. I then went around to several other apartments and condos in the are and next thing I knew I had over 100 booklets. That was over $4000 in match plays, but Palms would only let you use 1 blackjack and 1 roulette at a time. So during that 3 month period, almost everyday when I headed out, my first and last stop was Palms. lol.

Here is one lower roller thing I did religiously when my partner was alive, do less now. Jerry's Nugget would give a weekly $25 match play and $25 free bet for just a very small amount of blackjack play, 30 minutes or so. So once a week we would stop in play their CSM blackjack game, which always was played slowly with people jumping in and out for 30 minutes. That cost probably $5. and for that we would get those (2) $25 weekly bets, one MP, one free bet, worth just under $25 total for a profit of $20 each, which is less that my normal BJ rate, but fun, profitable and you get the satisfaction of beating the casino.

At little bit of video poker play also got cash on the mailer. The used to give cash, later switched to free play, that made that small amount of play +EV. AND on top of all that, there would be a $10 weekly food credit, and I just loved Jerry's Nugget coffee shop and baked goods. So that hour or 90 minutes counting eating time at Jerry's Nugget was one of my favorite hours each week. Come to think of it, I gotta get back to that once we get past these Covid times. :)

As many of these stories as you care to share... Keep them coming.

My intention, once retired, was to make two stops every day, earn $100 - just $100 - at each stop, and eat, drink and be entertained on the points I earned doing so. Completely under the radar, untraceable, off-the-books gross income. Not a living, just a supplement to my constant retirement income.

Then eight deck, covid, and $25 minimums to get 3:2 arrived, and my dream was shattered. Maybe now nobody can do it that easily, making this more like a real job. If possible, you have to work at it.

I enjoy reading about how it's done, even if's that difficult now, and how it used to be, pardon me, so easy in the past. Or how it can still be done, up to a point, in Las Vegas, given a great deal of attention to detail. But the idea of leaving home in the morning with a route, a set pattern, and a process of doing research and evaluation on the fly is like watching a virtuoso play a classic musical instrument.

I enjoy every tale.

Inflation. Better make it win $500 or $1,000 every day.

Quote: kewlj

It is low roller stuff, but I have done and even continue to do some low roller stuff, that earns much less than my normal blackjack play hourly. For a real advantage player, part of the thrill is just beating the casino, even if it is small amounts. You just have to make sure it doesn't take too much time away from bigger stuff.

Here is a couple other things I have done:

Palms used to mail out a little coupon booklet quarterly, to everyone....just regular mail advertising. The book had lots of food coupon, but also contained 4, $10 match plays, 2 blackjack and 2 roulette, each good for a 6 week period during that quarter. So on the day I received my booklet, I could score 15-20 more booklets just from the trash can in the mail room of my condo. I then went around to several other apartments and condos in the are and next thing I knew I had over 100 booklets. That was over $4000 in match plays, but Palms would only let you use 1 blackjack and 1 roulette at a time. So during that 3 month period, almost everyday when I headed out, my first and last stop was Palms. lol.

Here is one lower roller thing I did religiously when my partner was alive, do less now. Jerry's Nugget would give a weekly $25 match play and $25 free bet for just a very small amount of blackjack play, 30 minutes or so. So once a week we would stop in play their CSM blackjack game, which always was played slowly with people jumping in and out for 30 minutes. That cost probably $5. and for that we would get those (2) $25 weekly bets, one MP, one free bet, worth just under $25 total for a profit of $20 each, which is less that my normal BJ rate, but fun, profitable and you get the satisfaction of beating the casino.

At little bit of video poker play also got cash on the mailer. The used to give cash, later switched to free play, that made that small amount of play +EV. AND on top of all that, there would be a $10 weekly food credit, and I just loved Jerry's Nugget coffee shop and baked goods. So that hour or 90 minutes counting eating time at Jerry's Nugget was one of my favorite hours each week. Come to think of it, I gotta get back to that once we get past these Covid times. :)

I also did the palms matchplay dumpster diving, multiple daily visits shortly after I moved there back when I had about 5k to my name. Easy (risk wise, not time wise) bankroll boost.

And I also enjoyed the Jerry’s Nugget weekly cash think I got $40-$50 and coffee shop visit good little coffee shop cafe. The all you can eat pasta deal with soup/salad at the Italian place wasn’t a bad deal for the dining credit either if you wanted to attempt to eat 5000 calories.

“Back in the day.” Lol. Not that long ago. I am starting to feel old nowadays watching sports seeing the kids of names I was watching growing up start the play.

Nowadays I've gotta hand my match play to the dealer and they've gotta get a pit signature and match it to my player's card and hand it back to me before I can play it. That's a lotta work for a lotta nothing. Do they collect signatures when players tip the dealers?

Quote: ChumpChange

Inflation. Better make it win $500 or $1,000 every day.

I wasn't going to be greedy. $200 per day times 200 working days is $40K. Totally untraceable, so 25% on top of that comes out to an annual salary of $50K if it was a real job. Plus free breakfast and lunch every working day off of the points. $500 or $1,000 is sticking your head a little bit too far out of the foxhole. I was making the same on a "part-time" basis after work, but only three days a week. I still felt a little too visible since I was always playing on the same shift and would greet a couple of dozen dealers and floors every time.

Any day I was "lucky" and cleared more than $100 at one location I'd make sure I was very visible giving back the overage, maybe at the other spot.

Eight decks. I doubt they knew what they were doing - they probably figured it increased hands-per-hour since the shoes lasted longer between deals.

Casinos are kicking out red chip card counters with less than $200 in chips on them. It's a total purge.

Since hotel prices have plummeted, it's being blamed for increased riff raff and violence in and around casinos. So the only counter measure is to raise hotel prices and table minimums?

Thanks for the kind words racquet.

I have always said blackjack card counting works best as a part-time or supplemental type thing. And I have always thought someone retired or supplementing retirement was the perfect scenario. And I still thing that is very doable.

One thing I would caution or change about your thinking is to accumulate ××× amount of E.V. pet day, rather that actual win. Actual win doesn't work that way. You accumulate or win a certain amount of E.V. and "in the long run", you actual win will come pretty close.

If I were going to do this as a full-time gig, or as a primary income source, I'd look at it differently. I invested over the years looking for a long-term return, and was able to overlook downturns, even significant ones like happened in 2007, as bumps in the road. It worked. I never made a killing, survived the internet bubble, and can now live comfortably on the results. No bitcoin or gold escapades, penny stocks or commodity futures. My only successful one of those was Resorts International in the late seventies - a big profit on the opening of Atlantic City, which got my attention focused on blackjack. That and a Ken Huston computer program, the install disks (5 1/4 floppies) that I still have.

The game as it was - 6-deck, 3:2, S17, surrender, $5 minimum - was a pot of gold. If I knew where we'd be now, I would have stalked it more eagerly than I did. I figured it would be waiting for me once I retired and would have the time to stay under the radar and not get greedy. $40,000 a year. Being given away. For anyone who knew what they were doing, it was waiting for them. I never wanted to play for MIT. I wanted nobody to know who I was.

Now, with the takeaways that have hit the game, everywhere, it requires exactly the level of concentration and focus that you are talking about,

I think the heat inherent in playing for real is a lot more intense now, thanks to technology. I have to play rated, since points are part of the upside. I believe programmers are clever enough to develop algorythms that flag individual player cards for attention. I know what I would code to catch people like me. A spreadsheet of suspicious card numbers arrives in the emails of a dozen guys who can put a dozen camera views on their screens, and get pinged whenever one of those cards is swiped.

Even my fallback hobby - three or four trips to Las Vegas every year - got rolled over by the virus. I wanted to fly to Vegas for a mid-week comped stay, courtesy of low Southwest flights (using points of course) and play the more lucrative games available there. A couple of gourmet meals and a bunch of buffets, with the entertainment being the unusual cast of characters that are drawn there. But who wants to even get on a plane today? Not me.

Once the virus subsides, if it ever does, and maybe I'll be able to do that. But for now it's just browsing the forums and reading the stories.

I still think you can do some of that Racquet., in Vegas anyway. Don't know about other locations. 40k is a very achievable goal that will allow for some longevity if you do it right. Still lots of 6 deck games, 3:2, 75, 80 even 85% pen. S17 is mostly gone. There is some surrender, but I personally have come to see surrender as a bit of a card counter tell. Most players who play surrender don't play it right or well. Those that do are either card counters or very good basic strategy players. For this reason, I kind of stick to the 16 vs 10 and 9, 15 vs 10 surrender plays, occasionally 14 vs 10. You get into anything more than that and it really is a tell that you know what your doing.

About the heat: I think a lot of players don't understand the relationship involving heat. They go about it wrong, trying to trick the casino, pit folks and surveillance. You aren't going to "trick" technology. 90% of pit folks don't want to back anyone off or bar anyone. Few enjoy that kind of confrontation and if there are other players around it is just bad for business. They back people off to protect themselves. So that they don't take heat for allowing a card counter to sit and play for hours and walk with a big win.

A strategy of short sessions, means you aren't sitting there for hours and more than likely your wins will be smaller. You avoid that bigger 5 figure win, replaced by many smaller wins. This means less pressure on the pit folks , which in turn mean less pressure on the player. Design your play with the pit guy in mind.....so that he doesn't have to answer for you and your longevity goes way up.

One other thing. A backoff or baring is NEVER the first response or tell that your play is out of the comfort zone. If you are getting a lot of backoffs and baring, you are missing the warning signals. You have to learn to read these people. It isn't that hard.

And finally about playing rated: I read your argument all the time. You want to get what freebies you can. Problem is almost no one is giving much in points and comps for blackjack play anymore. I mean maybe if you are a high roller that they have definitely pegged as a losing player, but for normal players, you get nothing or next to nothing. You play an hour spreading from $50-$400 bucks (average bet close to $100 and check your points and they have given you 45 cents worth. lol

AND for that 45 cents, they know exactly who you are and have a very convenient record of all your play. If you are a winning player it practically jumps out at them. At least playing unrated, they have to work a little.

If part of your thing is wanting some free meals / buffets, I recommend playing your blackjack unrated, but giving a small amount of play on something like video poker, especially hitting the multiplier days. Just a little bit. your earn some points and if in a place like Vegas get some mailers with offers that are even more valuable than the points.

Racquet, I am not encouraging anything, I've been accused of encouraging players to pursue this or that and blamed when it didn't work out for them, but overall, your plan is still doable. Just needs some tweaking here and there and adjusting for the times. Always adjusting. :)

I think part of my problem has been that my intended retired hobby was supposed to fill all the new free time I acquired by not working. Plus I had developed friendships - casual to be sure - with other "degenerate gamblers" along with some dealers and floors. A lot of them have lost their jobs or their own hobbies because of COVID. The vacuum remains unfilled, along with an inability to travel brought on by the virus. I'm spending the winter inside, with only Netflix to fill the void.

If I can get to Las Vegas, I will play unrated, or at least at all but one or two spots, so as to hopefully get some comped rooms for the next visit. I would not expect to get discovered.

But Vegas should be a special occasion, not a routine thing. One can only sit down to so many 22-oz ribeyes. Plus one or two negative-EV sessions, without an ongoing opportunity to make up the slack, can turn the excursion into a net loser. Las Vegas is very -EV as to being a regular haunt. People go to the mountains four times a year, or to Florida for the winter. Four trips a year? Oh look - the same homeless veteran is at that same spot outside the Four Queens as last time. It costs a lot of time to get there and back from the east coast, and planning to hit the low-cost flights and hotels. So it's not a spur-of-the-moment thing.

But I am hopeful. If the vaccines actually work I am coming out there. If I do, I'll send you a PM and if you're interested I'll buy dinner. You've already provided the entertainment.