Continuous Shufflers and Card Counting
I have suddenly gotten the urge to play blackjack again (most likely in Delaware...they now have 24/7 $2 tables); I have practiced REKO; yet I have noticed, at least in Delaware, that CSM's have taken over the blackjack tables. From what I gather, one of the points of the CSM is to provide randomness in card dealing.
If this is the case, do the CSM's make counting pointless? I mean, what's the point in counting a random deal?
If I am incorrect in my assumptions, are there are specific strategies (other than basic) with which to follow at at tables featuring a continuous shuffler? If so, what are they?
As an aside, is anyone familiar with the Delaware $2 tables? At first glance, they appear to be of the e-table variety; I haven't noticed if they are 6:5 or 3:2...
Quote: NiblickI thought that this question was addressed previously but I could not find any thread that addressed this topic specifically. Please forgive me if the topic was addressed and I couldn't find it.
I have suddenly gotten the urge to play blackjack again (most likely in Delaware...they now have 24/7 $2 tables); I have practiced REKO; yet I have noticed, at least in Delaware, that CSM's have taken over the blackjack tables. From what I gather, one of the points of the CSM is to provide randomness in card dealing.
If this is the case, do the CSM's make counting pointless? I mean, what's the point in counting a random deal?
If I am incorrect in my assumptions, are there are specific strategies (other than basic) with which to follow at at tables featuring a continuous shuffler? If so, what are they?
As an aside, is anyone familiar with the Delaware $2 tables? At first glance, they appear to be of the e-table variety; I haven't noticed if they are 6:5 or 3:2...
Counting most likely is rendered useless... some dealers allow about 1-2 decks out of the shuffler before loading up again, but even then, you won't get much of an edge.
My guess is higher denominations may have traditional shoes. If you're not comfortable with those amounts, then you may be stuck. If not, good luck!
Quote: TiltpoulMy guess is higher denominations may have traditional shoes.
Same thing I was gonna say. I've never seen a CSM in a high-limit room, but, if you're excited about two dollar tables, that might not be something that you're interested in.
I was wondering about that...
Did you notice any shoes being used...anywhere? I was there Saturday night: 1. There were seats open on the $5 and $2 tables, 2. The high limit area was vacant, 3. And, I can't recall seeing a shoe anywhere.
I'm pretty sure Dover is S17 (as is Delaware Park); but isn't Harrington H17?
PS: definitely pretty good rules otherwise, certainly 3:2 for BJ and liberal splitting rules in all BJ games; S17 too
Quote: TiltpoulCounting most likely is rendered useless... some dealers allow about 1-2 decks out of the shuffler before loading up again, but even then, you won't get much of an edge.
My guess is higher denominations may have traditional shoes. If you're not comfortable with those amounts, then you may be stuck. If not, good luck!
The CSMs I've been seeing lately are the Shuffle Master one2six model. The dealers I've watched were under strict orders to return the discards after every hand. There is no way to count or shuffle track this game.
Quote: benbakdoffThe CSMs I've been seeing lately are the Shuffle Master one2six model. The dealers I've watched were under strict orders to return the discards after every hand. There is no way to count or shuffle track this game.
I think most of the CSMs have been replaced by those. They seem to operate more efficiently but when those things mess up, it takes a LOT longer to get them fixed.
Obviously the dealer training is what makes the difference. As I said, you won't get much of an edge with just one deck out, but dealers who know what they are doing often leave low cards out as long as they can. Then after a series of tens or aces, in the cards go.
What would be the projected earnings per hour for a card counter at a $2 table (best case scenario with 3:2 and good rules)?
Quote: kpIt seams to me that a CSM would make card counting much easier, especially one where you return the discards after every hand.
What would be the projected earnings per hour for a card counter at a $2 table (best case scenario with 3:2 and good rules)?
are you paying attention? How do you count cards with continuous shuffling? How do you win anything paying 25 cent ante [over 10%] on every $2?
Quote: odiousgambitHow do you count cards with continuous shuffling?
You start over at 0 every hand. That's what makes it so easy.
If you gets distracted and lose the count, you can just start over on the next hand.
What could be easier?
Quote: kpYou start over at 0 every hand. That's what makes it so easy.
If you gets distracted and lose the count, you can just start over on the next hand.
What could be easier?
I get it. Sorry.
Quote: kpYou start over at 0 every hand. That's what makes it so easy.
If you gets distracted and lose the count, you can just start over on the next hand.
What could be easier?
Technically you don't start over at 0 every hand. The discards don't make it back into the mix before the next hand is dealt. The 15 or so cards dealt from the previous hand cannot be in the very next hand. Go ahead and count those if you think it will help. Use perfect basic strategy and hope for good variance, because over time you are going to lose and there's nothing you can do about it.
I've been playing blackjack successfully since the early 70s under many conditions. If a CSM was my only choice, I would never play again.
Edited to say they would want to keep the high cards out and recycle the low cards quickly - thanks for pointing out my typo.
Quote: kpYou start over at 0 every hand. That's what makes it so easy.
If you gets distracted and lose the count, you can just start over on the next hand.
What could be easier?
By the way, I was never advocating that you could count cards on a CSM. I have noticed some dealers take a while to reload, so I suppose you could gain a SLIGHT SLIGHT advantage if there were more small cards out. Most of the tables have small card holders so they fill up quickly. Occasionally, they have a six-deck holder and those are the tables where the dealers tend to forget.
Quote: benbakdoffUse perfect basic strategy and hope for good variance, because over time you are going to lose and there's nothing you can do about it.
And play the $5 table (w/no ante),
And invoke the Rule of 45 (when applicable...but talk about the thinnest of percentages!),
And hope I'm sitting next to odiousgambit,
And leave when I'm ahead...cause sooner or later, I'll regress to the mean.
And get back to the Racebook
Thanks for the discussion, you've all confirmed my suspicions...from what I can tell, there's little to distinguish this CSM thing from the Shufflemasters.
Again, thanks.
Quote: TiltpoulI think most of the CSMs have been replaced by those. They seem to operate more efficiently but when those things mess up, it takes a LOT longer to get them fixed.
Obviously the dealer training is what makes the difference. As I said, you won't get much of an edge with just one deck out, but dealers who know what they are doing often leave low cards out as long as they can. Then after a series of tens or aces, in the cards
go.
Good house dealers would keep out HIGH cards as long as they can.
