Video Blackjack
Quote: JuniorWizDid an accidental double post, couldn't figure out how to get rid of the second one
If you figure it out, get rid of all your posts. They're full of misinformation.
These machines can deal 1K-1.5K hands per hour (maybe more). Compare that to a live BJ game that might only deal 120 hands per hours. As a result, you're going to see more of these time of "outlier" events with VBJ vs live BJ, because you're going to see more hands.
Plus, since the game goes so fast and there's less to distract you from the actual game play, selective memory could be a bigger factor with VBJ than live BJ.
Quote: JuniorWizInteresting theory, but if you get that many hands per hour it should be much closer to the "long run" for truer results.
As a rule, I try to avoid video BJ, however there was one casino I played at that paid the rate of VBJ at the slot rate, and during multiplier promotions, it was actually an easy way to rack up points without losing too much money. I could put $100 in the machine, play for about an hour, rack up $28 in comps, and on average I would lose about $60. However, I then got bounce back coupons for $55 and hotel rooms whenever I wanted.
I know what you're saying with the "streaks" on the machines. There will be times where you will get four 20s in a row for the dealer to draw out 21 every time. I don't swear much, but I can say those machines turn me into a sailor, cursing them for all the cheating that they do. But as the previous poster mentioned, I think this is due to such a high number of hands. Even in regular BJ, there will be times where 4 20s get beat back-to-back, but instead of seeing it in one hour, it takes at least 6 hours before it happens. Plus a sympathetic dealer is much harder to swear at than a STUPID F---ING MACHINE!!!! Oops, it's starting again...
Quote: JuniorWizI say it is a pre-programmed pattern. It may or may not end up in the long run with the true odds, but I don't believe for a minute that it is an RNG. (Unless the RNG just picks the order of the pre-programmed patterns)
That's fine. I don't believe for a minute that you know anything about statistics, math, or gambling.
Quote: JuniorWizI flip off the machine. I am not going to say where, but I absolutely purposely play these on days when they have multiple points. The other day I had 4 pat 20s in a row, and it had various dealer upcards (non-10s) and pushed me 4 in a row, then a 19 push and a 17 push. I say it is a pre-programmed pattern. It may or may not end up in the long run with the true odds, but I don't believe for a minute that it is an RNG. (Unless the RNG just picks the order of the pre-programmed patterns)
What jurisdiction? If it's New York or Washington, you're probably right. Otherwise, probably not. Most gaming jurisdictions (in the US, anyway) don't permit video blackjack games to behave differently than they would if they were dealt from a physical deck of cards.
It may seem like you're seeing more streaks of certain outcomes than you do on a table, but that's because on a table you're also seeing many other players' cards. The perception is different. There is no reason, either engineering or business, for Bally to change the coding of a blackjack game from the one they have regulated in Nevada unless the specific jurisdiction requires otherwise. The games in Nevada are required to use RNGs and to be statistical equivalents of their physical counterparts.
Quote: JuniorWizThe "Whatever" was directed at sabre, but it appeared in the thread after mathextremist, who seems to know a hell of a lot more about math than sabre.
Quite possibly. I won't dispute that.
But I do know that a rock has more knowledge of mathematics than you.
Quote: JuniorWizNo, it is not one of those "Class 3" or whatever it's called at some Indian casinos based on bingo, or lottery pull tabs, er whatever. But it is not Nevada, and I have no idea if other states' gaming commissions just echo Nevada's rules or what. I have always wondered how a state's gaming commission approves the shufflemaster (specific model: Deck-mate, flush mounted) Does the state just echo Nevada's approval? Does the company just submit a 578 page report (like a drug-company does with a new drug with the FDA for approval) claiming a true random shuffle, and the commission goes along with it. Or does the commission perform various tests to prove a true random shuffle. Of course, shufflemaster claims a true random shuffle, but I don't believe that one either, especially when they are plugging and stacking, and not really shuffling anyhow.
The regulatory process varies for each state. Some of them have their own labs (NV, NJ), others outsource to 3rd party labs like GLI or Eclipse. But I think your issue is more fundamental. You don't believe the ShuffleMaster products do a "true random shuffle", but that's exactly what the labs have verified. The test of a random shuffle is not whether it mimics the motion of your hands as they riffle-shuffle the cards. The test of a random shuffle is whether the probability of a card i appearing in position j in the deck or shoe is equal for all i and j. If it's not, then by definition the shuffle is biased.
There are known, very efficient algorithms for producing a random shuffle which have absolutely nothing to do with how humans shuffle a physical deck of cards. The most well-known is the Fisher-Yates (a.k.a. Knuth) shuffle, which involves traversing through the deck, one card at a time, and randomly swapping each card with a card that comes after it (or sometimes itself). That passes the test for an unbiased shuffle, but no casino dealer will ever do that. The "plug and stack" method you deride is actually quite effective given the physical constraints of dealing with cards and machinery. The point is, while it may not pass your test for what constitutes a true random shuffle, it passes the regulators' tests.
Quote: JuniorWizsabre, in the 3 posts directed at me, you have not given one specific. In the approximate 5 previous posts of yours, you looked fairly intelligent. I wish i could make a video with my phone of the vbj screen at a casino. Or even take notes (I know the Wiz himself was busted doing this once) It has all sorts of tricks, like it might make hitting a soft 17 backfire 5 times in a row. Feasibly, this could get a novice to quit hitting soft 17s, to his future detriment.
I made 2 posts directed at you.
It's not worth the time or effort to use logic or reason to explain why you're wrong. You are a "flat-earther", who could circle the globe on foot yet still believe it's possible to fall off the edge.
I'm just ridiculing you in the hopes that readers coming here to learn about how such games work will disregard your posts, since they are grossly incorrect.
I walked past at waved at his bank of machines, the service lights atop them would all blink back " Hi Buzz " in Morse code.
Over my head:
http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS?verb=Display&version=1.0&service=UI&handle=euclid.aoap/1177005705&page=record
http://discovermagazine.com/2002/oct/featmath
Quote: JuniorWizThanks for the nice answer, mathextremist, very knowledgeable and polite. So you think every state does require independent testing, and doesn't just take shufflemaster's word?
Over my head:
http://projecteuclid.org/DPubS?verb=Display&version=1.0&service=UI&handle=euclid.aoap/1177005705&page=record
http://discovermagazine.com/2002/oct/featmath
To my knowledge, no state simply "takes ShuffleMaster's word." They may take another state's word, or an existing report from a technical lab, but it's a highly regulated process.
Quote: buzzpaffOf course you lost. Try lining the inside of your baseball cap with aluminum foil.
I am serious. I do not believe the video blackjack is a true random deck.
Quote: JuniorWizI am serious. I do not believe the video blackjack is a true random deck.
Junior Wiz - how many hands have you played on the machine? Unless it's 10,000 or 100,000, or even more, then you don't have any statistical relevance - you're just experiencing the negative side of variance (being unlucky). As every gaming jurisdiction would seriously fine and/or punish an operator running a machine that wasn't random, I seriously doubt it is not random as you claim.
-B
Quote: toastcmuJunior Wiz - how many hands have you played on the machine? Unless it's 10,000 or 100,000, or even more, then you don't have any statistical relevance - you're just experiencing the negative side of variance (being unlucky). As every gaming jurisdiction would seriously fine and/or punish an operator running a machine that wasn't random, I seriously doubt it is not random as you claim.
-B
I have played them on and off for 14 years. Read some earlier of my comments here.
Quote: buzzpaffWho cares if the dealer gets 3 BJ in a row.? How good a player are you, that's the question? Do you even know what basic strategy is? what are the rules for the game you are playing, how many decks, shuffle point, etc. If you don't know the answers to those questions, please stop wasting your time and mine!
You are wasting my time by being rude. I have seen some of your posts and I know that you know what you are talking about, so you don't need to be rude. Of course I know basic strategy. The rules on VBJ suck, double 10 and 11 only, no re-splitting, blackjacks pay even, etc. (But they let you double after split and hit on split aces) Video BJ like this supposedly is one deck with a shuffle after every hand.
Quote: JuniorWizI have played them on and off for 14 years. Read some earlier of my comments here.
Well, then the poor paytables (since you're talking the Bally machines) at the 2.5% house edge is what's grinding you down. On and off for 14 years could still only be 50,000 hands on the low end. To echo what someone else said, if you're unhappy with it, don't play that game anymore...
-B
If I was being rude I would tell you to quit wasting your money. Surely there are BJ physical tables tables open or penny slots
available. Penny slots can be more fun and less frustrating!
Quote: ikilledjerryloganNo offense but why do you keep playing this game if the rules suck and the game cheats? I think you said before that you think its fun but it doesn't seem like you're having very much fun.
Well, yes, often it is fun, but I guess it is somewhat addictive also. And it's a good way to rack up points, especially on days with multipliers. But, theoretically, I guess I should never play it. I guess I am also trying to prove to the world that it cheats.
Quote: ikilledjerryloganNo offense but why do you keep playing this game if the rules suck and the game cheats? I think you said before that you think its fun but it doesn't seem like you're having very much fun.
Well, yes, often it is fun, but I guess it is somewhat addictive also. And it's a good way to rack up points, especially on days with multipliers. But, theoretically, I guess I should never play it. I guess I am also trying to prove to the world that it cheats.
Quote: buzzpaff" You are wasting my time by being rude. I have seen some of your posts and I know that you know what you are talking about, so you don't need to be rude. Of course I know basic strategy. The rules on VBJ suck, double 10 and 11 only, no re-splitting, blackjacks pay even, etc. (But they let you double after split and hit on split aces) Video BJ like this supposedly is one deck with a shuffle after every hand."
If I was being rude I would tell you to quit wasting your money. Surely there are BJ physical tables tables open or penny slots
available. Penny slots can be more fun and less frustrating!
Well, a penny slot would have about an 11% H.E., (plus it is a slot machine, jeez), I would guess VBJ to be around 2%, and I currently don't have the capital to play real BJ. and you were most certainly rude earlier with:
I know these games are rigged. My cousin is a dwarf and actually controlled a bank of VP machines from inside them. Whenever
I walked past at waved at his bank of machines, the service lights atop them would all blink back " Hi Buzz " in Morse code.
and
Of course you lost. Try lining the inside of your baseball cap with aluminum foil.
Quote: rainmanA single deck shuffled after every hand produces much more violent swings than a 6 deck shuffle after every hand. This is true for both positive and negative streaks. Every thing the op has complained about I have experienced on a real table many times over. I play to much. :)
Ahhh, and I have been basically reporting just the opposite; you are confirming my belief!
JuniorWiz, you have GOT to track some sessions for this to be taken seriously. Not "during an unspecified length of time this event occurred during one portion," but rather "here are the 100 hands/100 dealer outcomes, etc." Then statistical tests can be run to see if things are out of the ordinary.
Quote: sunrise089Selective memory selective memory OMG this is so obviously s.e.l.e.c.t.i.v.e. m.e.m.o.r.y!
JuniorWiz, you have GOT to track some sessions for this to be taken seriously. Not "during an unspecified length of time this event occurred during one portion," but rather "here are the 100 hands/100 dealer outcomes, etc." Then statistical tests can be run to see if things are out of the ordinary.
Not possible, even the Wiz got busted taking notes at a slot machine, and they do kind of frown on taking videos with your camera/phone!
Quote: JuniorWizNot possible, even the Wiz got busted taking notes at a slot machine, and they do kind of frown on taking videos with your camera/phone!
Nonsense, you're referencing one single instance among hundreds. People take slot and vp records and notes all the time.
Just like "pics or it didn't happen," "event log or I don't believe you."
a real dealer has a reason to cheat, especially if u cant afford to tip. a machine dont, it dont care about tips and isnt intrisincly of evil intent. u can trust 100% a machine for than a person, for a machine has no incentive to cheat. and its more laughable how these same people who wont trust the VBJ trust the VP machines.
Quote: sevencard2003i laugh at the people who think VBJ is cheating them. i dont lose as long as i dont overbet my edge--which im often tempted to do if i get stuck. but if i stick to good money management and follow the count--i do ok. not for a lot of money, but for a lot of $1 units.
Doesn't every video blackjack shuffle after every hand?
Quote: sevencard2003a real dealer has a reason to cheat, especially if u cant afford to tip. a machine dont, it dont care about tips and isnt intrisincly of evil intent. u can trust 100% a machine for than a person, for a machine has no incentive to cheat. and its more laughable how these same people who wont trust the VBJ trust the VP machines.
What incentive does the "intrisicnly of evil intent" dealer have to cheat?
Quote: JuniorWizDoes anybody know anything about video blackjack (say from Bally Gamemaker, not the virtual game from Shufflemaster)? I have played these for years (mostly for fun and relaxation) and I truly don't believe it is a random deck, but a bunch of hands put into specific patterns that may or may not add up to the true odds if enough hands were played to get to the "long run." I have seen too many repeat patterns, too many cases where it goes into a certain mode (7 pushes in a row, 7 hands in a row with a dealer bust card up and you have a 12-16 and you lose every time, 12 times in a row where whatever you hit, you get a 10). I just don't believe this is a random 52 card deck like it is supposed to be.
I play video blackjack all the time. This is what I do with any free slot play. It would be smarter to play video poker than 1:1 blackjack with no DAS, but I don't care to learn the strategy. VBJ has much better odds than your average slot machine.
I ALWAYS break even. There's nothing wrong with these games. If I get down on my slot play, I just keep playing. The normal fluctuations you find in regular blackjack occur in this game. They have always brought me back to even, at which point I cash out. "Too many cases" is due to the increased hands per hour and your propensity to play this game; it's your perception, not reality. 12 10s in a row from an infinite deck is not remarkable, nor is losing 7 times in a row when the dealer has only a slim advantage each time (that's right, his "bust card" means you will probably lose with less than 18).
