Proving decks-not needed anymore?

At WoV-East Con last week we all had a good time and *almost got to play the first hand on a brand new electronic table. More on that if anyonbe cares feel free to ask. Anyways, anytime I previously saw a table open they opened 6-8 decks and verified they were true and correct then shuffle. In this case they had 6 (8?) deck packages that were "preshuffled" and they put them right into the auto (NOT CSM) shuffle, then into a shoe. Oneangrydwarf and myself keyed in on this right off and we asked the people working there (who we knew personally, BTW.) We were then told about the pre-shuffled decks and also that they "trusted" the manufacturer so they didn't prove them.

Anyone else know about this? Is this normal? Is there a state reg anywhere about proving or do the casinos do that on their own?

Not normal AT ALL!

It takes any casino just a few minutes to show and prove the decks when opening a table.
Never heard of it, and never had seen it done.

Foxwoods in Ct. has been doing this since last fall with the 8 deck shoes and there doesn't seem to be any uniform method of checking the cards. Some dealers spread 1 or 2 decks and check the front and back of the cards for irregularities. I've seen others spread all eight decks. It may have something to do with how crowded the casino is at the time.

There is no way to verify the composition because the cards are pre-mixed. It's one stack of 416 cards. There were gripes at first, but the players quickly got used to it. I would have no qualms about it at this particular venue if I were inclined to play 8 decks.

The Newport Room is and always has been 6 decks.

I just returned from the WGPC where preshuffled decks were mentioned. Some casino's actually buy the preshuffled decks and shuffle them before use, which in every game protection personnel's opinion is madness.

You buy preshuffled to cut down on time, thereby improving the customers experience and keeping your HA in effect. Shuffling preshuffled cards is basically saying you dont trust the manufacturer, so why bother spending the extra money on the service? (Or using that manufacturer, for that matter)

So yes, this is a normal occurance when preshuffled decks are used. However, since we don't offer them here, I can't comment on the regulations. I would suppose that if they were required by law to be proofed then they wouldn't exist in the first place.

Wow, it just seems to open the open the casino to a higher risk of a crooked dealer switching in a pre-arranged couple of decks to give his partners higher hands or him busts. I always thought the biggest reason for "proving" is to record the action on security tape in case there were any questions about the composition of the deck.

I think proving is more of a way to catch any manufacturers defects; ink blots, fades, one-ways, cuts, duplicates, ommisions, etc. Proving for customer complaint reasons could be done on the spot, simply break them down and show them. Better to only do if asked, it saves time.

As for the crooked dealer, all the cards are highly controlled. Dealers never see or touch a deck except while at the table. In order for a scam of this nature to occur, you'd need several people either in on it or not doing their jobs, to include Security, Surveillance, Pit Boss and Floor Supervisor. Typically, the more people needed the more impossible the scam is. (3 is said to be the magic number in prevention, as in have 3 different departments involved in any high security issue)

As a random nugget of gaming knowledge, there is/was one high end scam involving these decks. A casino who's name escapes me had their own 'preshuffle room' where decks were returned to, shuffled by personnel, and placed into shoes ready to be delivered to the table. There's a Bac scam called 'The 51' where 51 cards are placed in a certain order anywhere in the shoe. As long as they remain intact, i.e. not cut by the cut card, they will always play out beginning with a 7-7 tie, then into a set pattern ending in I think 6 ties. No matter how the shoe plays out or where in the shoe this stub is located, it always plays out the same. Quite ingenious. Of course, the reason it happened in the first place is there were only Shuffle Persons in the shuffle room and the room didn't even have camera coverage! Talk about oversight. They kind of asked for that one, methinks.

P.S. Paigowdan, in my shuffle audit mentioned elsewhere I found that our BJ tables alone bring in about $43 per minute. A few minutes to prove X how many tables X how many deck changes = much more than my yearly salary. I'd say any casino manager who skips the b.s. has the right idea on how to run the place, as long as he doesn't skimp enough to become 'Example A' ;)

The 51 would need a bit of a tweak, as you can't gurantee that the stub will start on the 7-7 tie... as I understand it Bacc plays with a random number of cards each hand (4,5 or 6) so you can't gurantee that the first card of the stub will be dealt as the first card of a hand.

I'm guessing if you put enough stubs out there you could do something with it anyways.

P.S. Paigowdan, in my shuffle audit mentioned elsewhere I found that our BJ tables alone bring in about $43 per minute. A few minutes to prove X how many tables X how many deck changes = much more than my yearly salary. I'd say any casino manager who skips the b.s. has the right idea on how to run the place, as long as he doesn't skimp enough to become 'Example A' ;)

Can I ask how many tables, minimum at each, and over what time period. Just asking? Np reply necessary!

Quote: thecesspit

The 51 would need a bit of a tweak, as you can't gurantee that the stub will start on the 7-7 tie... as I understand it Bacc plays with a random number of cards each hand (4,5 or 6) so you can't gurantee that the first card of the stub will be dealt as the first card of a hand.

I'm guessing if you put enough stubs out there you could do something with it anyways.

I think it would work...maybe if the first cards were worth "0"--to end one hand and start another (the 7's) and then some more "0" values to end hand...I know the math guys will figure it out for us!!

Quote: thecesspit

The 51 would need a bit of a tweak, as you can't gurantee that the stub will start on the 7-7 tie... as I understand it Bacc plays with a random number of cards each hand (4,5 or 6) so you can't gurantee that the first card of the stub will be dealt as the first card of a hand.

I'm guessing if you put enough stubs out there you could do something with it anyways.

No sir, thats the ingenious part about it. It matters not where the stub is in relation to the beginning of the shoe, nor does it matter how many hands have played or how many cards are played in each hand before you get to the stub. Once you see the 'key cards', say it's the 5 of Clubs and 7 of Spades (I could find the actual cards if absolutely needed) you mentally mark them. The very next hand after them will either be random (as in it just happened to be another 5C and 7S that landed upon each other) or a 7-7 tie. If it's a 7-7 tie, then you know the pattern has started and know the outcome of the next 10ish hands, with the last 6 being tie wins. It's absolute genius. I imagine it could be looked up online, but if any of the math-aholics want the excercise, I could provide The 51 and they can do the calculations themselves. It's pretty amazing.

Quote: buzzpaff

Can I ask how many tables, minimum at each, and over what time period. Just asking? Np reply necessary!

You can ask, although my answer will be at best a highly varied and long winded estimate.

It appears though as if you're fishing for information to come to an answer for an unasked question. If I'm right, hit me with that question, it may be easier answered. =)

I guess there is a tradeoff. Time in play versus tradition and courtesy. The casino makes its money when dealing, not shuffling. The casino uses six and eight deck shoes rather than single decks to prevent card counters from having a field day. Proving eight decks probably takes a good bit of time. Washing eight decks would be time consuming as well.

Its sort of a "lets get down to business" situation. Of course this means the players must trust the casino has sensibly prepared the pre-shuffled decks.

Preshuffling in a room without cameras and without oversight? Amazing.

On the Florida Day Boats you can watch the decks being shuffled. You are still in Territorial Waters but you can go up and watch the dealers shuffling cards. I don't think its a matter of the casino demonstrating honesty, they just don't much care to bother keeping anyone away from it.

I recall that there was a scam where a gang would bring in an entire preset shoe, and working with a crooked dealer, would switch it with the one on the table. A member of the gang would tuck the original it in his clothes and walk out the door. Am I just imagining this, or did it actually happen?

Quote: Ayecarumba

I recall that there was a scam where a gang would bring in an entire preset shoe, and working with a crooked dealer, would switch it with the one on the table. A member of the gang would tuck the original it in his clothes and walk out the door. Am I just imagining this, or did it actually happen?

That scam is mentioned on one of the Travel Chanel's "Stealing Vegas" type shows. Ever wonder why there's a cheap chain that ties the shoe to the table? That's why.

Quote: Ayecarumba

I recall that there was a scam where a gang would bring in an entire preset shoe, and working with a crooked dealer, would switch it with the one on the table. A member of the gang would tuck the original it in his clothes and walk out the door. Am I just imagining this, or did it actually happen?

See it in action here The shoe switch swcam starts at around 3 minutes.

For the 19 years in Colorado with a $5 maximum I understood the time spent spreading new deck, looking for blemishes, etc. To ensure the player was getting an honest game. But hated the extra minutes on shuffle, box reshuffle box reshuffle at 6 or 8 deck tables.
Or Golden Gates setting cut card at less then 3/4 of a deck on hand held Double Deck pitch game.
IT'S $5 MIN and $5 MAX. Talk about counter PARANOIA ....