Blackjack: Dealer Hits Soft 17
My question is this: If I am playing at a table where the dealer hits a soft 17, but during my play for however long, the situation never arises where the dealer has a soft 17, does that mean the percentages are the same as when a dealer stands on soft 17? So in other words, at a table where the dealer hits on a soft 17 those percentages are actually the same as where the dealer stands on a soft 17, until the situation arises where the dealer actually does hit on a soft 17?
The reason I ask is that many times when I play where the dealer hits a soft 17 the situation never actually arises. Therefore, I was wondering when those percentages and how you are "suppose" to play the hands may or may not change depending on if the situation actually arises where the dealer does hit the soft 17.
If you have any thoughts or insight please let me know.
Quote: SONBP2I know that the math says you should play at a table where the dealer stands on a soft 17, but sometimes those tables are difficult to find in Vegas anymore.
My question is this: If I am playing at a table where the dealer hits a soft 17, but during my play for however long, the situation never arises where the dealer has a soft 17, does that mean the percentages are the same as when a dealer stands on soft 17? So in other words, at a table where the dealer hits on a soft 17 those percentages are actually the same as where the dealer stands on a soft 17, until the situation arises where the dealer actually does hit on a soft 17?
The reason I ask is that many times when I play where the dealer hits a soft 17 the situation never actually arises. Therefore, I was wondering when those percentages and how you are "suppose" to play the hands may or may not change depending on if the situation actually arises where the dealer does hit the soft 17.
If you have any thoughts or insight please let me know.
The dealer will be dealt a soft 17 in 2 of 169 situations or 1.18% of the time. There will be other situations where the dealer gets to a soft 17 (A-2-4, A-3-3, A-5-A, etc) about another 1.11% of the time. This means that the soft 17 should come into play about 2.3% of the time or once in 43 1/2 hands, or a couple of times per hour.
The fact that you don't see it often is just a function of the cards played. You should never alter the calculated strategy just because you don't see the soft 17 because it's out there.
I am not sure what the strategy "cost" is by following the stand on 17 vs the hit on 17 basic strategy tables.
Quote: boymimbo
I am not sure what the strategy "cost" is by following the stand on 17 vs the hit on 17 basic strategy tables.
The difference between H17 and S17 is .2 % of your action. But if we're talking about the difference between playing BS in a S17 game using a H17 strategy, then the cost is negligible, as any strategy changes are very borderline, if I'm not mistaken.
If you play a 6:5 BJ game with (I believe) 2% disadvantage and never get a BJ. You were still playing at a 2% disadvantage, just because you never got a BJ is irrelevant.
Or if you play in a game where you can't double after split the house edge is still higher, just because you don't get the chance to do it in a given session also does not matter.
Quote: OzzyOsbourneIf you play a 6:5 BJ game with (I believe) 2% disadvantage and never get a BJ. You were still playing at a 2% disadvantage, just because you never got a BJ is irrelevant.
1.39%, for the Wizards benchmark rules ;)
To give a bit more reason as to why... The house edge is determined off of the math of the game with no hands, or infinite hands pending how you want to look at it. You are a 2% disadvantage. If you play for 2 hours and don't have a blackjack, you were still a 2% disadvantage because over the "long run" of the game it will balance out to the predetermined math. I don't like to say this specifically, but for simplistic sake... If you have no BJ's for 10 sessions in a row it doesn't matter because by the time you reach 10,000 sessions you will have come closer to the average amount of blackjacks (law of averages) you should theoretically reach in that time frame. Meaning the 6/5 did hurt you all the same even though you didn't specifically see it in the first 10 sessions of your play.
The Wizard says on the WoO blackjack BS page:Quote: GreasyjohnThe difference between H17 and S17 is .2 % of your action. But if we're talking about the difference between playing BS in a S17 game using a H17 strategy, then the cost is negligible, as any strategy changes are very borderline, if I'm not mistaken.
Quote:If you play a mixture of six-deck games, some where the dealer hits a soft 17, and some where he stands, and you only wish to memorize one strategy, I would recommend you memorize the one where the dealer stands on soft 17. The cost in errors due to playing the wrong strategy is 2.3 times higher playing a stand on soft 17 game, with the hit on 17 strategy, than vise versa.
H17 is not a deal breaker on a six deck game. Penetration and rules determine how playable the game is. Is anyone counting? The 0.22% increase in the house edge that H17 gives is at a count of zero. As the count rises, that percentage dwindles and that's when you have the money out.
It's about evaluating the game. It's not unheard of for a counter to bypass a S17 game in favor of H17. There was some talk of 6:5 in this thread but I'm referring to 3:2 only. I don't have a lot to say about 6:5 however there are those who say even that can be beaten.
Quote: SONBP2how you are "suppose" to play the hands may or may not change depending on if the situation actually arises where the dealer does hit the soft 17.
The only time the dealer wouldn't hit their soft 17 on a H17 table would be when all the player hands are already settled (due to busts or naturals).
The noticeable change is doubling (vs stand) A-8 vs 6.
As to how you're supposed to play your hand, you're supposed to play the way that's likely to win. That's following the right strategy chart, unless you have extra information.
For the casino I play, also doubling 11 v. A and A7 v. 2 changes. 15, 17 and 88 v. A change to surrender.Quote: DieterThe noticeable change is doubling (vs stand) A-8 vs 6.
Edit: Changed A6 v. 2 to A7 v. 2. I tip my hat to 1BB for catching my mistake.
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyFor the casino I play, also doubling 11 v. A and A6 v. 2 changes. 15, 17 and 88 v. A change to surrender.
A,7 VS 2?
My bad! Yes, should be A7 v 2 double. I will correct my post, thanks! (Thankfully, I play it better than I write about it.)Quote: 1BBA,7 VS 2?
You could also do some funky math and figure out what your disadvantage was knowing dealer wouldn't have the opportunity to hit a soft 17. Doing the math, you'd have to take into account what the player would do if he thought hitting a soft 17 was possible, but the math has to exclude that opportunity from occurring. How to do that, I don't know. (Kinda like in Video Poker, I could figure out what my return would be if I didn't hit a Royal....or what my return would be if I knew I would hit a royal....this is much easier to figure out than BJ stuff, IMO.)
Quote: BleedingChipsSlowlyFor the casino I play, also doubling 11 v. A and A7 v. 2 changes. 15, 17 and 88 v. A change to surrender.
Lucky you, getting surrender...
I'm always stuck on H17 tables, so I don't think about all the differences, but you're right - those are also changes to basic between S17 and H17.
When I say that double A-8 v 6 is the "noticeable" change, I mean it's the technically correct play that I get the most backlash for from my table companions who don't seem to understand the game.
Next week I'll be able to do some gambling at the Greenbrier [WV]. I don't plan to do much BJ, but they are advertising min $5 constant availability, so surely I'll play some even though they have gone from Dealer S17 to H17.
It occurs to me that possibly the one single good thing about H17 is that it must increase the variance [this would not occur to a BJ AP perhaps]. You double all 11s, soft 18 vs 2, and you double soft 19 vs 6 [edit]. There are perhaps some other changes I forgot. That's got to increase variance!
As far as more surrender to lower variance, this particular game has none. Anybody know the standard deviation change?
Quote: odiousgambitThere's one good thing about H17?
Next week I'll be able to do some gambling at the Greenbrier [WV]. I don't plan to do much BJ, but they are advertising min $5 constant availability, so surely I'll play some even though they have gone from Dealer S17 to H17.
It occurs to me that possibly the one single good thing about H17 is that it must increase the variance [this would not occur to a BJ AP perhaps]. You double all 11s, soft 18 vs 2, and you hit soft 19. There are perhaps some other changes I forgot. That's got to increase variance! [edits]
As far as more surrender to lower variance, this particular game has none. Anybody know the standard deviation change?
Shoe game? Surrender 15 vs ace, 17 vs ace and 8,8 vs ace. Do not hit soft 19. Double it vs 6.
Quote: 1BBsoft 19 ... Double it vs 6.
it is a shoe, 8 decks
yes, double soft 19 vs 6 I should have said. Increasing variance I would sure think. Looking now myself to see if Wizard already has the SD
PS: no surrender at this outfit
