Can Michael Shak or anyone else come up with the proper startegy chart to play this. Here are the rules which are very player friendly:

basic rules like das, double any 2 cards, dealer stands on soft 17, 8 deck, may split aces but no hit

here are the juicy rules:

early surrender against anything

split 10's and get an ace pays 3:2 (blackjack)

split aces and get any 10 card pays 3:2 (blackjack)

unlimited split hands (even aces and 10s)

5 card charlie (automatic winning hand 1:1 against anything except bj)

Can anyone calculate the player advantage given this set of rules. I am guessing about +1.7 % or possibly a bit more. Getting BJs (3:2) on split aces and 10s should change the typical strategy dramatically. I am guessing proper strategy would be to split 10's (EEEEK!) against any dealer up card of 2-9? Also the 5 card charlie rule should alter the strategy somewhat.

Any help would be appreciated...

https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/rule-variations.html

For example:

Ace and 10 after splitting aces is a blackjack ..... +0.19%

There's no line indicating the value if getting an ace after splitting tens paying blackjack. What does that tell you?

Quote:DJTeddyBearOn the other site, the Wiz has a chart to show the effect of a variety of rule changes:

https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/rule-variations.html

For example:

Ace and 10 after splitting aces is a blackjack ..... +0.19%

There's no line indicating the value if getting an ace after splitting tens paying blackjack. What does that tell you?

That tells me that no one offers 3:2 on split 10s bjs but it surely increases the PA a big chunk. I went to the Wiz's site first, but there really are no strat charts with the rules I have listed

Quote:Jufo81I think it is -EV to split tens even if Soft 21 pays as blackjack after splitting.

even against a 4, 5, or 6? I say you are wrong. Someone will know for sure. Does Michael Shackleford ever post answers here?

Quote:kengam77even against a 4, 5, or 6? I say you are wrong. Someone will know for sure. Does Michael Shackleford ever post answers here?

I recall that there was a Blackjack variation mentioned at Wizardofodds where TA paid 3:2 after splitting Tens and it was concluded that even with that extra payout you shouldn't split tens against any dealer upcard.

Even without splitting tens the game rules are favourable (considerable player edge) but if all you get from playing the game is pizza coupons I wouldn't bother lol.

Yes, he does. But he also knows that there are some rather sharp minds here. And he encourages the comminuty aspect of this place, so he may not jump in with an answer right away - or even a comment.Quote:kengam77even against a 4, 5, or 6? I say you are wrong. Someone will know for sure. Does Michael Shackleford ever post answers here?

Quote:DJTeddyBearYes, he does. But he also knows that there are some rather sharp minds here. And he encourages the comminuty aspect of this place, so he may not jump in with an answer right away - or even a comment.

good to hear. I know Michael from way back. I consider myself rather sharp and have been taking advantage of +EV situations since the beginning of online gambling (1997). I have made well into 7 figures doing just that over that span.

Quote:WizardofEnglandall the time!

this is simply incorrect if you are suggesting that it is -EV to ever split 10s

Quote:kengam77this is simply incorrect if you are suggesting that it is -EV to ever split 10s

I was referring to the fact that the Wiz is an active member.......

Quote:kengam77even against a 4, 5, or 6? I say you are wrong. Someone will know for sure. Does Michael Shackleford ever post answers here?

I say you're wrong. Random Logic software used to pay 3-2 for AT after splitting tens, but it still wasn't the right play to split.

From Stanford Wong's Professional Blackjack in a six-deck S17 game we get the following EVs for the normal rule for AT after splitting:

Stand: 0.902

Split: 0.567

Let's add something for the 3-2 for AT after splitting. Assuming infinite re-splitting, the player will get to 2.89 hands on average. Each will have about a 1/13 chance of drawing an ace, so about 0.222 ATs. Assuming the hand would have won anyway the player would get an extra 0.5 units each, so an extra 0.111 units. We should add a little more for AT presumably being an automatic winner. However we are still a long way off from bridging the gap between 0.567 and 0.902.

Quote:WizardI say you're wrong. Random Logic software used to pay 3-2 for AT after splitting tens, but it still wasn't the right play to split.

From Stanford Wong's Professional Blackjack in a six-deck S17 game we get the following EVs for the normal rule for AT after splitting:

Stand: 0.902

Split: 0.567

Let's add something for the 3-2 for AT after splitting. Assuming infinite re-splitting, the player will get to 2.89 hands on average. Each will have about a 1/13 chance of drawing an ace, so about 0.222 ATs. Assuming the hand would have won anyway the player would get an extra 0.5 units each, so an extra 0.111 units. We should add a little more for AT presumably being an automatic winner. However we are still a long way off from bridging the gap between 0.567 and 0.902.

Thanks for chiming in. I stand corrected. when you state the EV for stand being .902 and split being .567 is that for all dealer up cards lumped together? Those numbers would have to be very different depending on the dealer up card.

Given the rules of the game that I stated above can you calculate the HA?

Quote:kengam77

Thanks for chiming in. I stand corrected. when you state the EV for stand being .902 and split being .567 is that for all dealer up cards lumped together? Those numbers would have to be very different depending on the dealer up card.

If you look at the Appendix 1 at Wizard of Odds (https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix1.html) it shows that the expected value of standing TT vs. 6 is 0.704 and for splitting 0.4681. The appendix is based on infinite decks rather than 6 decks but the expected values don't probably change very much. Similarily you can compare the differences in expected value for other dealer upcards. Based on Wizard's previous post the gap should be less than 0.111 units for splitting Tens to be worthvile.

Quote:Jufo81If you look at the Appendix 1 at Wizard of Odds (https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix1.html) it shows that the expected value of standing TT vs. 6 is 0.704 and for splitting 0.4681. The appendix is based on infinite decks rather than 6 decks but the expected values don't probably change very much. Similarily you can compare the differences in expected value for other dealer upcards. Based on Wizard's previous post the gap should be less than 0.111 units for splitting Tens to be worthvile.

This appendix doesn't take into account the 3:2 for getting that ace after splitting. I see now that it is still a bad bet except when the count is >4

Quote:kengam77This appendix doesn't take into account the 3:2 for getting that ace after splitting. I see now that it is still a bad bet except when the count is >4

No, therefore you should add 0.111 units to the expected value of splits and compare then.

Quote:kengam77...Can anyone calculate the player advantage given this set of rules. I am guessing about +1.7 % or possibly a bit more...

Using the infinite-deck model for this game, I get a player advantage of +1.90%.

Quote:ChesterDogUsing the infinite-deck model for this game, I get a player advantage of +1.90%.

Thanks, I guess I was a little off. 1.9% is nice though. 1k bet limit and I can play about 200 hands per hour (slow software). That should yield a profit of 3800 points/hour playing perfect strategy.

Bet points can be exchanged at the rate of 619 points per $50 in cash. So basically I should earn $306.95 per hour playing max bets. I will either break them or get booted or possibly both. We shall see.

Quote:kengam77...playing perfect strategy...

The 5-card-charlie rule might change the strategy a little. I wouldn't split 2's vs 2 or 3, nor 3's vs 2; I wouldn't double A4 vs 4, nor A2 or A3 vs 5 or 6.

Some casinos have a special rule that gives players an automatic win if they are able to achieve a five card hand without going over 21 points. Some of these casinos even pay a bonus to players who catch Five Card Charlies. If you play at a game that uses the Five Card Charlie Rule, keep these points in mind.

When to Hit

•You have 3 cards that total to 12 or less

•You have 4 cards that total 15 or less

•You have a soft 12 – 17

•Any time you have 4 cards with an ace

•You have a soft 18 and the dealer is showing 9, Ten or Ace

•You have 4 cards that total 16 and the dealer is showing anything but a 4,5 or 6

•You have a soft 18 with three cards and the dealer is showing 2-8

Quote:kengam77Five Card Charlie Strategy

Some casinos have a special rule that gives players an automatic win if they are able to achieve a five card hand without going over 21 points. Some of these casinos even pay a bonus to players who catch Five Card Charlies. If you play at a game that uses the Five Card Charlie Rule, keep these points in mind.

When to Hit

•You have 3 cards that total to 12 or less

•You have 4 cards that total 15 or less

•You have a soft 12 – 17

•Any time you have 4 cards with an ace

•You have a soft 18 and the dealer is showing 9, Ten or Ace

•You have 4 cards that total 16 and the dealer is showing anything but a 4,5 or 6

•You have a soft 18 with three cards and the dealer is showing 2-8

That's good advice. Here is a Wizard of Odds page with Charlie advice, too. When players follow this advice, they would also hit 4-card hard 17 vs 9, 10, and A; stand on 3-card soft 18 vs 7; and hit 3-card 13 vs 2 and 3. And although the Wizard doesn't mention it, perhaps the player should hit a 3-card soft 19 vs 10.