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mkl654321
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January 16th, 2011 at 11:39:32 AM permalink
Obviously, the average player makes Basic Strategy blunders routinely and repeatedly--but some mistakes are more prevalent than others. For instance, hardly anybody hits a soft 18 under ANY circumstances. Many players will hit a hard 16 against a 10 but will stand on that hand against a 7--which thinking is exactly backwards. Also, many players don't soft double or split 22, 33, 77, etc.

Ignoring the really dumb errors you see like hitting a hard 14 against a 6 or standing on 15 vs. a 10, what mistake do you see most when you're playing?
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clarkacal
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January 16th, 2011 at 11:48:55 AM permalink
Not only do most players not hit a soft 18, many grumble and complain when you do.
benbakdoff
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January 16th, 2011 at 1:15:34 PM permalink
With the exception of doubling 10 vs 10 I see these mistakes every time I play and it doesn't take very long. Here's a couple more: Not doubling A7 when appropriate and not using or misusing surrender when available.
Croupier
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January 16th, 2011 at 2:48:28 PM permalink
Quote: benbakdoff

With the exception of doubling 10 vs 10 I see these mistakes every time I play and it doesn't take very long. Here's a couple more: Not doubling A7 when appropriate and not using or misusing surrender when available.

]

I see most of these when Im at work.
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rdw4potus
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January 16th, 2011 at 6:03:07 PM permalink
not hitting/doubling A7 is very high on my list. So is not hitting 12 against a 2 or 3.
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bbvk05
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January 16th, 2011 at 7:35:01 PM permalink
My order based purely on observation in the Phoenix area:
1. Not hitting soft 18 against a 9,10,A
2. Not doubling a soft 17 and 18 when appropriate
3. Not soft doubling generally
4. Not doubling an 11 against a 10, A (when dealer hits soft 17)
5. Not doubling a 9 against 3, 4, 5, 6
6. Not splitting 99 against everything but a 7, 10, A.

Perhaps these are just the errors that bother me the most. Tops is soft 18 against a 9, 10, A though- it is like people think they have a good hand at 18.
Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2011 at 10:47:06 AM permalink
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DJTeddyBear
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January 21st, 2011 at 11:02:19 AM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I get dealers tell me that surrender is a bad rule for the players and a good rule for the house.

If it was really a good rule for the house more (all?) casinos would offer it.
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AZDuffman
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January 21st, 2011 at 11:08:11 AM permalink
I would say not knowing how to handle a dealer 2 or 3 upcard.

Not knowing about surrender is also a biggie. Saved me quite a bit at my last visit. I'd wager just under half of players know about surrender and of that number half consider it throwing money away.
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mkl654321
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January 21st, 2011 at 11:13:43 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

If it was really a good rule for the house more (all?) casinos would offer it.



It's a good rule for the player because there are situations where a player can gain EV by using the surrender option. Whether or not any given group of players uses or misuses that option isn't relevant.

I think that most casinos don't offer it because most unskilled players would never even consider it. Giving up half your bet to save the other half goes against the grain of most recreational players. They would definitely NEVER surrender again if they found out that underneath that scary 10, the dealer had a 6, and then the dealer busted and paid everybody except that guy who surrendered.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2011 at 11:13:46 AM permalink
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7outlineaway
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January 21st, 2011 at 11:29:44 AM permalink
Is there a casino anywhere where the surrender rule is actually *posted*? I always have to ask. That's the surest sign it's a good bet at times for the player. (Similarly, some casinos don't post their craps odds anywhere, and none have wording on the felt to tell you where the odds bet goes.)
Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2011 at 11:31:59 AM permalink
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ChesterDog
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January 21st, 2011 at 12:00:27 PM permalink
I agree that not hitting soft 18 vs 9, 10, and ace is the most common error. And a big pet peeve of many players is players' hitting soft 18. (I always listen for this when I'm hitting soft 18, "You have eighteen!")

Another common player error is standing on soft 17.
Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2011 at 12:03:23 PM permalink
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DJTeddyBear
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January 21st, 2011 at 12:10:28 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I was actually surprised the other day when a guy hit A7 vs 10 and on the very next hand hit 12 vs 3.

Why does that surprise you?

Both are correct according to the strategy card I carry.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ ————————————————————————————————————— Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Ibeatyouraces
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January 21st, 2011 at 12:14:57 PM permalink
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dm
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January 21st, 2011 at 12:31:56 PM permalink
A costly error I have seen often is forgetting the double down option after splitting non-A's. Say 11 total after second card against dealer six. Maybe they don't know it's allowed.
mkl654321
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January 21st, 2011 at 5:28:03 PM permalink
Quote: dm

A costly error I have seen often is forgetting the double down option after splitting non-A's. Say 11 total after second card against dealer six. Maybe they don't know it's allowed.



Actually, in most casinos, it isn't allowed. Anyone who normally played in a casino that didn't allow it would probably not even realize it if it WAS allowed.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
P90
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January 21st, 2011 at 6:07:46 PM permalink
I don't count standing 16v10 to be an error, it's the right move for long 16, it's the right move at ever-so-slightly positive count, so it's often just the right play by default.
Doubling 10v10 is also often the right play, depending on the rules and count.

Treating 18 as a great hand is perhaps the most common, but followed closely by passive play against 7-8 cards, which often includes even standing on 15v7.
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Malaru
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January 21st, 2011 at 6:25:24 PM permalink
Quote: P90

I don't count standing 16v10 to be an error, it's the right move for long 16, it's the right move at ever-so-slightly positive count, so it's often just the right play by default.
Doubling 10v10 is also often the right play, depending on the rules and count.

Treating 18 as a great hand is perhaps the most common, but followed closely by passive play against 7-8 cards, which often includes even standing on 15v7.




It mentioned BASIC strat.
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P90
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January 21st, 2011 at 7:27:03 PM permalink
Yes, but basic strategy is not a codex of laws. It's a set of suggestions that are optimal under default conditions, and there are good reasons they call it basic. With laws, you can say "no matter how little you break it, it's a crime", with systems like BS you can't. Making the right move is never an error, even if it's a non-BS move.

For what it's worth, the standard BS chart tells you to *surrender* 16v10. If you can't surrender in a game that offers it, it means you have 3+ cards, in which case you stand. As such, in any LS game, hitting 16v10 is always an error, except possibly in split hands. But you only split 88 against 10, and even in that rare case, you have 4+ cards out, limiting hitting 16v10 to very few specific compositions.

Charts that tell one to hit 16v10 are true to the methods they have been derived with, but highly misleading, which is a mild form of saying "in error", even though the error is due to the method. Any player with access to LS games should learn to stand on 16v10 if can't surrender, since that is the right play under all but exceedingly rare circumstances.
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mkl654321
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January 21st, 2011 at 8:56:28 PM permalink
Quote: P90

Yes, but basic strategy is not a codex of laws. It's a set of suggestions that are optimal under default conditions, and there are good reasons they call it basic. With laws, you can say "no matter how little you break it, it's a crime", with systems like BS you can't. Making the right move is never an error, even if it's a non-BS move.

For what it's worth, the standard BS chart tells you to *surrender* 16v10. If you can't surrender in a game that offers it, it means you have 3+ cards, in which case you stand. As such, in any LS game, hitting 16v10 is always an error, except possibly in split hands. But you only split 88 against 10, and even in that rare case, you have 4+ cards out, limiting hitting 16v10 to very few specific compositions.

Charts that tell one to hit 16v10 are true to the methods they have been derived with, but highly misleading, which is a mild form of saying "in error", even though the error is due to the method. Any player with access to LS games should learn to stand on 16v10 if can't surrender, since that is the right play under all but exceedingly rare circumstances.



??? Lacking the ability to surrender, the optimal play is to hit 16 vs. 10. The only exception is if you are playing single deck, and your hard 16 is comprised of three or more cards--then stand. In any shoe game without surrender, hitting is always the best play (assuming, obviously, that you are not counting).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
P90
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January 21st, 2011 at 9:30:25 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

??? Lacking the ability to surrender, the optimal play is to hit 16 vs. 10. The only exception is if you are playing single deck, and your hard 16 is comprised of three or more cards--then stand. In any shoe game without surrender, hitting is always the best play (assuming, obviously, that you are not counting).


Are you positive? While most CDE apply only to SD and fewer to DD games, the exception for S16v10 at 3+ cards is one that applies to shoe games as well, to the best of my knowledge. The relative advantage of hitting over standing under default conditions is so minuscule that it reverses with even such a small touch.

Some of the more detailed basic strategy chart calculators even suggest to stand on 16v10 outright if can't surrender (while hitting in no-surrender games).
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mkl654321
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January 22nd, 2011 at 2:53:28 AM permalink
Quote: P90

Are you positive? While most CDE apply only to SD and fewer to DD games, the exception for S16v10 at 3+ cards is one that applies to shoe games as well, to the best of my knowledge. The relative advantage of hitting over standing under default conditions is so minuscule that it reverses with even such a small touch.



Yep, positive. The 3-card rule only applies to single decks. Which makes sense, since the third card isn't enough to change the composition of a six-deck shoe to a point where you should change the play from "hit" to "stand".

If you think about it, you should be MORE inclined to hit hard 16 against a 10 in a shoe game, all other things being equal. That "strategy calculator" you are using is flawed---particularly, as you point out, when it recommends standing in one instance and hitting in another, identical instance.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
P90
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January 22nd, 2011 at 3:24:32 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Yep, positive. The 3-card rule only applies to single decks. Which makes sense, since the third card isn't enough to change the composition of a six-deck shoe to a point where you should change the play from "hit" to "stand".


I respect the practice of replying from memory alone. But this is a relatively obscure point where it might be worth the while to check with hard data. On this particular matter I've heard of this CDE applying to multi-deck games from every single source I've consulted.

Even Wizard's lists extend the stand long 16v10 exception past SD: https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/appendix3b.html



Quote: mkl654321

That "strategy calculator" you are using is flawed---particularly, as you point out, when it recommends standing in one instance and hitting in another, identical instance.


Actually it recommends always standing when can't surrender in surrender-enabled games, and hitting on two cards only in no-surrender games. Since you will rarely face 16v10 H/S choice in surrender-enabled games, and in almost all of those cases standing is better, it's the right recommendation, ignoring the exceptionally rare case for several common ones.
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miplet
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January 22nd, 2011 at 4:05:28 AM permalink
From Here
Quote:

*One exception is 16v10 with surrender. If surrender is allowed and you have a two-card 16 versus a 10 up, you surrender the hand and never reach this table. So, if you do reach this table, your 16 must be made up of three or more cards or the product of a split, and the other cards are probably small cards. With fewer small cards left, the dealer is more likely to bust. So you stand and hope the dealer busts. The difference is tiny, about .002%. The fact is, if you have 16 against a ten, you are probably going to lose no matter what you do.

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dm
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January 23rd, 2011 at 8:27:53 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Actually, in most casinos, it isn't allowed. Anyone who normally played in a casino that didn't allow it would probably not even realize it if it WAS allowed.



DAS not allowed? It sure is in Vegas. Don't know about the "most". No telling what rules might exist at the NAC's (NA is short for those guys that kicked Custer's butt).
Yoyomama
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January 23rd, 2011 at 8:39:14 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

not hitting/doubling A7 is very high on my list. So is not hitting 12 against a 2 or 3.



I agree. Especially the 12 against the 2 or 3. Because if they do (like I always do) everyone else will say "it's a bad move." Seems to bring out the most comments from others. Shows everyone else's ignorance.
boymimbo
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January 23rd, 2011 at 8:48:25 AM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Actually, in most casinos, it isn't allowed. Anyone who normally played in a casino that didn't allow it would probably not even realize it if it WAS allowed.

.

In the Wizard's blackjack survey, DAS is allowed in all but 27 of his 186 rows. It is far more prevalent to be able to Double after split than not.
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mkl654321
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January 23rd, 2011 at 9:55:02 AM permalink
Quote: boymimbo

.

In the Wizard's blackjack survey, DAS is allowed in all but 27 of his 186 rows. It is far more prevalent to be able to Double after split than not.



Yes and no. Most casinos now have some kind of bastardized BJ, like "Party Pit" or "Fun 21", where blackjacks pay even money or some such horrible modification. Most games like that do allow DAS. It's very rare to find a game with decent rules (like, 3:2, S17) that also allows DAS.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
boymimbo
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January 23rd, 2011 at 11:56:26 AM permalink
Check the Wizard's survey again, then. His chart only shows true blackjack games at 3:2. The casinos that DO not offer DAS are:

Poker Palace
Main Street Station
Fremont (double deck and $3 only)
Hooters (single deck)
Sam's Town
California

The casinos in the list below offer a combination of DAS and no DAS games:
Four Queens (Single and double decks only)*
Golden Nugget (double deck)*
El Cortez (single deck)*
Excalibur*
Fitzgeralds (double deck)*
Binions (single deck)*
Tuscany (single deck)*

Harrah's Corporation
Paris (double deck)*
Planet Hollywood (double deck)*
Caesar's Palace (double deck)*
Ballys (double deck)*
Flamingo (double deck)*
Rio (double deck)*

Note that the MGM group do not have any blackjack games that do not offer DAS in blackjack.
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kengam77
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January 25th, 2011 at 9:02:37 AM permalink
most common error IMO is not hitting 12 or 13 on a dealer 2
jonfourtwenty
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February 15th, 2011 at 2:41:40 AM permalink
In the UK (where the dealer does not check for blackjack) I would have to also include doubling 11 vs 10 and 11 vs ace is also common.

The biggest mistake though is taking even money. I would estimate that 80-90% of all players will take even money in this country.
JIMMYFOCKER
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February 15th, 2011 at 4:41:00 AM permalink
Good thread
LovinItAll
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February 21st, 2011 at 11:43:10 AM permalink
Quote: clarkacal

Not only do most players not hit a soft 18, many grumble and complain when you do.



this....
PGBuster
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February 27th, 2011 at 3:10:12 AM permalink
In my five years in the business in Iowa, I definitely have to say its hitting/doubling soft 18. I was supervising one day and a player asked what the correct move was with A/7. I told the player to hit (It was versus a face card). The dealer began arguing with me, saying the player should stand. Fortunately for me, my shift manager came over and took my side. (I usually carry a copy of the Wizard's BJ strategy card in my pocket. I've also carried his UTH/M-Stud strategy card in my pocket as well).

I thought about writing the dealer up for arguing with me on a live game, but declined. Another dealer got into an argument with me when she told a player to hit hard 13 against a 3. As she was returning from break, I told her that if she didn't want to give correct basic strategy, then she shouldn't do it at all. She threw a fit and stomped back towards her game.

A very close second place is 4/4. Many players believe in the old and inaccurate adage of "Never split anything that begins with F". I've taken massive amounts of crap when I do this as a player. I've had to defend players who split their fours against a five or six. Far more common is the dreaded double down on hard eight. I used to speak up but rarely do anymore because people think I'm a "bad guy for the house".

I think teaching dealers basic strategy would be an excellent idea. Unfortunately, the house would never go for it.
teddys
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February 27th, 2011 at 6:55:22 AM permalink
You are a rare soul, PgBuster!
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benbakdoff
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February 28th, 2011 at 12:33:06 PM permalink
Quote: PGBuster

In my five years in the business in Iowa, I definitely have to say its hitting/doubling soft 18. I was supervising one day and a player asked what the correct move was with A/7. I told the player to hit (It was versus a face card). The dealer began arguing with me, saying the player should stand. Fortunately for me, my shift manager came over and took my side. (I usually carry a copy of the Wizard's BJ strategy card in my pocket. I've also carried his UTH/M-Stud strategy card in my pocket as well).

I thought about writing the dealer up for arguing with me on a live game, but declined. Another dealer got into an argument with me when she told a player to hit hard 13 against a 3. As she was returning from break, I told her that if she didn't want to give correct basic strategy, then she shouldn't do it at all. She threw a fit and stomped back towards her game.

A very close second place is 4/4. Many players believe in the old and inaccurate adage of "Never split anything that begins with F". I've taken massive amounts of crap when I do this as a player. I've had to defend players who split their fours against a five or six. Far more common is the dreaded double down on hard eight. I used to speak up but rarely do anymore because people think I'm a "bad guy for the house".

I think teaching dealers basic strategy would be an excellent idea. Unfortunately, the house would never go for it.



Why are you arguing with dealers in front of the players? Is it possible that the dealer who told the player to hit the hard 13 against a 3 was a card counter? It's the correct play at TC -2 in a shoe game. There are many other index plays including the dreaded doubling of that hard 8.

If a player asks me directly about a particular play, I'll always refer them to basic strategy. If I'm not asked I say nothing. I don't want the pit critters to hear me explaining the game in depth. I prefer to let them keep thinking that they're smarter than me.
PGBuster
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February 28th, 2011 at 2:01:29 PM permalink
The argument was off the game and not within earshot of players. The dealer was definitely not a card counter; she could barely deal the game. Furthermore, our rules state that a player may "only advise the player in basic strategy", so even if she was a counter, it would be in violation of the rules. As for the A/7, there's enough incorrect information out there amongst players. I don't need dealers giving the same inaccurate information out. To an informed player, it shows incompetence.
stlcardinalfan28
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February 28th, 2011 at 2:42:06 PM permalink
I always stay on a7 no matter what. I feel like people give me looks and I really don't care. I haven't been to the casino much lately though. A little broke. Did win over a grand last week though playing a new game 10-hand hold'em at ameristar st. charles casino. It's a luck game but I think their is some strategy in it too. Blackjack is always my favorite though.
benbakdoff
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February 28th, 2011 at 3:35:49 PM permalink
Quote: stlcardinalfan28

I always stay on a7 no matter what. I feel like people give me looks and I really don't care. I haven't been to the casino much lately though. A little broke. Did win over a grand last week though playing a new game 10-hand hold'em at ameristar st. charles casino. It's a luck game but I think their is some strategy in it too. Blackjack is always my favorite though.



It's your hand and your money and you have the right to play it any way you choose. There is no team, no flow of the cards or no making others lose- just your hand against the dealer's. Most losers like to blame others for their misfortunes.

To limit your losses, strive to play perfect basic strategy.
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