Randomness of csm

Hello,

I was wondering what would be the best way and best statistics to check to find out if a csm is random and provide a fair shuffle (HE about 0.5% playing basic strategy).

Thank you

Quote: Jean26

Hello,

I was wondering what would be the best way and best statistics to check to find out if a csm is random and provide a fair shuffle (HE about 0.5% playing basic strategy).

Thank you
link to original post

Have access to the csm’s in the first place. Then have the software that can connect to the shuffler, and go to the screen that tells you the stats of the shuffle.

If you can do any of that I want you to report back with your findings

Also I have to say this. A lot of people question if something is random at all based on things that they see and that they think they shouldn’t be seeing a certain pattern. Most believe there shouldn’t be patterns at all. But the opposite is true. That guy who always wins on the first seat or whatever can continue to win and you ca continually lose forever til the end of time and that is still random. Random means you don’t know.

A house edge has nothing to do with random either btw

Had a dealer get dealt 6 Aces then a 5 for a 21 last night on the home game. Totally sus.
13^6 = 4,826,809

Hey Heatmap and thank you for your answer.

It will be impossible for me to look at the screen behind the one2six in real casino. Also I noticed that the version of software doesn’t mean anything. For exemple I found some cheating machine using software 2.4 and 3.4 and some non cheating ones using same.

I understand what do you mean about the randomness and maybe I didn’t express myself properly.
What I meant is that I want to make sure that I’m playing a fair game with an HE of 0.5% (more or less spending on rules) and not playing a cheating shuffle with HE of 1.5% or even 3% etc …

I guess it’s difficult to know if the machine cheat just little bit like giving HE of 0.7% instead of 0.5% but if the csm is cheating enough and give HE of 1.5% or more (still playing basic strategy) then it should be possible with some stats or observations to find out pretty quick that the casino is setting the machine to win 1% additional on the basic strategy player right ?
I mean playing -1.5% game or -0.5% game can be find out in a couple of hours or days for sure right ?


Thank you

Quote: Jean26

Hey Heatmap and thank you for your answer.

It will be impossible for me to look at the screen behind the one2six in real casino. Also I noticed that the version of software doesn’t mean anything. For exemple I found some cheating machine using software 2.4 and 3.4 and some non cheating ones using same.

I understand what do you mean about the randomness and maybe I didn’t express myself properly.
What I meant is that I want to make sure that I’m playing a fair game with an HE of 0.5% (more or less spending on rules) and not playing a cheating shuffle with HE of 1.5% or even 3% etc …

I guess it’s difficult to know if the machine cheat just little bit like giving HE of 0.7% instead of 0.5% but if the csm is cheating enough and give HE of 1.5% or more (still playing basic strategy) then it should be possible with some stats or observations to find out pretty quick that the casino is setting the machine to win 1% additional on the basic strategy player right ?
I mean playing -1.5% game or -0.5% game can be find out in a couple of hours or days for sure right ?


Thank you
link to original post

The HE depends on the rules of the games you are playing. As in what are the rules of the blackjack games? Is it a 2 deck, 6 deck? Is does the dealer hit on soft 17? This HE doesn’t vary until you change the game you are playing maybe you might go from a 2 deck to a 6 deck.

Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.

Quote: heatmap

Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.

It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.

https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx

Let’s say I’m playing csm with S17 DAS replit AS where we are going to loose around 0.45% of our bet in the long run playing perfect basic strategy.
My question is when some casinos are using shuffles to get more money than they should, how to know we are going to loose 1.5%, or 5% or even 10% instead of 0.45% in the long run ?
What kind of observations or statistics could tell us quick enough that the csm is taking way more money than if we were playing against shoe ?

Thank you

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.

It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.

https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx
link to original post

Yeah but those arent in production inside a casino ;) Sure he can get one for himself but this post is seemingly about casinos and their ability to alter the HE based on a shuffle from them.... i think

Quote: Jean26

Let’s say I’m playing csm with S17 DAS replit AS where we are going to loose around 0.45% of our bet in the long run playing perfect basic strategy.

I like how this started out

Quote: Jean26

My question is when some casinos are using shuffles to get more money than they should,

Of course what the shuffle manufacturers claim is that the shuffler provides more profit because they are getting more rounds of blackjack per hour compared to hand shuffling... i would say the casinos are capped by the amount of tables they have open and the maximum betting limit per table... but there is no set amount a profit a casino can obtain i dont think at least where i live ... another one of those statements where you cant say random should be a certain thing

Quote: Jean26

how to know we are going to loose 1.5%, or 5% or even 10% instead of 0.45% in the long run ?

This is kind of one of those statements that i was talking about that you cant assume... This kind of thing isnt correlated to the shuffler... in a legal jurisdiction at least (not that i have proof of a rigged shuffler in any jurisdiction and i have alot of proof of things like that for everything except a shuffler)

You CAN continually lose forever in a random environment... there is no guarantee your supposed to win anything. The opposite CAN be true too.

This is what luck is, a random, uncontrollable event. You know who is controlling the ELEMENTS (aka the rules of the game)?

The casino is controlling the rules. If you go to different casinos in different jurisdictions, the rules are altered slightly in order for the casinos to make more money. In pennsylvania, the casinos hate that they cant have worse rules. The casinos are greedy and are trying everything to get the rules to be worse for the player but Pennsylvanias gaming commision is slightly in favor of the player. They know the casinos are greedy and are making so so so much money either way.

The HE is a FUNCTION of the RULES of the game.

Quote: Jean26

What kind of observations or statistics could tell us quick enough that the csm is taking way more money than if we were playing against shoe ?

Once again you cant correlate any of this to the shuffler but the rules of the game you are playing

Quote: heatmap

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.

It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.

https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx
link to original post

Yeah but those arent in production inside a casino ;) Sure he can get one for himself but this post is seemingly about casinos and their ability to alter the HE based on a shuffle from them.... i think
link to original post

Are you sure about that? I thought the Shufflemaster Deckmate 1 & 2 were still in use in some casinos and I am pretty sure the One2Six is also in use.

Drich, I bought one2six long long time ago. It was not cheating. I’m not here to look for another machine which 99% will be not cheating.
I’m looking for a way to check if the one2six I’m playing in not given me more disadvantage that it should and how to analyse that in real time. It can be number of 20 or 21 that bank get etc etc …
I’m not looking to know how they cheat (probably too hard to figure out without computer) but just give me an idea with some statistics at the table to know if the machine I’m playing against is fair about the disadvantage that it gives me.

You have a one to six... i say load your own game on to it... then play each game compared to each other and i can almost bet youll find out where the money goes

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.

It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.

https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx
link to original post

Yeah but those arent in production inside a casino ;) Sure he can get one for himself but this post is seemingly about casinos and their ability to alter the HE based on a shuffle from them.... i think
link to original post

Are you sure about that? I thought the Shufflemaster Deckmate 1 & 2 were still in use in some casinos and I am pretty sure the One2Six is also in use.
link to original post

Oh i meant in general not like that they arent being used ... if i purchased a shuffler online i would assume that it had gone through a decommissioning process to wipe internal memories and programs.

I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"

Quote: Jean26

Drich, I bought one2six long long time ago. It was not cheating. I’m not here to look for another machine which 99% will be not cheating.
I’m looking for a way to check if the one2six I’m playing in not given me more disadvantage that it should and how to analyse that in real time. It can be number of 20 or 21 that bank get etc etc …
I’m not looking to know how they cheat (probably too hard to figure out without computer) but just give me an idea with some statistics at the table to know if the machine I’m playing against is fair about the disadvantage that it gives me.
link to original post

Which is what i think this guy is talking about... he assumes a particular machine at a particular table is cheating him maybe...

Quote: heatmap

I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"

I would assume the opposite. I can't imagine a scenario where they would change the code in the shuffler. Granted, there would be no history but I would assume it will shuffle exactly like it did before.

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"

I would assume the opposite. I can't imagine a scenario where they would change the code in the shuffler. Granted, there would be no history but I would assume it will shuffle exactly like it did before.
link to original post

So there is a history for say it’s lifetime use … let’s say that the history isn’t wiped after it’s turned off or sold to someone… can that info be useful in any way

Also from what I understand there is some kind of monitor or way to connect to the shuffler to see this info

Quote: DRich

Quote: heatmap

I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"

I would assume the opposite. I can't imagine a scenario where they would change the code in the shuffler. Granted, there would be no history but I would assume it will shuffle exactly like it did before.
link to original post

I'm inclined to agree.
If a machine is gaffed, I expect it to go through an industrial scrap shredder and become confetti, not sold to a refurbisher.