Randomness of csm
October 21st, 2024 at 4:54:20 PM
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Hello,
I was wondering what would be the best way and best statistics to check to find out if a csm is random and provide a fair shuffle (HE about 0.5% playing basic strategy).
Thank you
I was wondering what would be the best way and best statistics to check to find out if a csm is random and provide a fair shuffle (HE about 0.5% playing basic strategy).
Thank you
October 21st, 2024 at 8:29:56 PM
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Quote: Jean26Hello,
I was wondering what would be the best way and best statistics to check to find out if a csm is random and provide a fair shuffle (HE about 0.5% playing basic strategy).
Thank you
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Have access to the csm’s in the first place. Then have the software that can connect to the shuffler, and go to the screen that tells you the stats of the shuffle.
If you can do any of that I want you to report back with your findings
Also I have to say this. A lot of people question if something is random at all based on things that they see and that they think they shouldn’t be seeing a certain pattern. Most believe there shouldn’t be patterns at all. But the opposite is true. That guy who always wins on the first seat or whatever can continue to win and you ca continually lose forever til the end of time and that is still random. Random means you don’t know.
A house edge has nothing to do with random either btw
October 21st, 2024 at 8:47:02 PM
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Had a dealer get dealt 6 Aces then a 5 for a 21 last night on the home game. Totally sus.
13^6 = 4,826,809
13^6 = 4,826,809
October 22nd, 2024 at 4:48:45 AM
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Hey Heatmap and thank you for your answer.
It will be impossible for me to look at the screen behind the one2six in real casino. Also I noticed that the version of software doesn’t mean anything. For exemple I found some cheating machine using software 2.4 and 3.4 and some non cheating ones using same.
I understand what do you mean about the randomness and maybe I didn’t express myself properly.
What I meant is that I want to make sure that I’m playing a fair game with an HE of 0.5% (more or less spending on rules) and not playing a cheating shuffle with HE of 1.5% or even 3% etc …
I guess it’s difficult to know if the machine cheat just little bit like giving HE of 0.7% instead of 0.5% but if the csm is cheating enough and give HE of 1.5% or more (still playing basic strategy) then it should be possible with some stats or observations to find out pretty quick that the casino is setting the machine to win 1% additional on the basic strategy player right ?
I mean playing -1.5% game or -0.5% game can be find out in a couple of hours or days for sure right ?
Thank you
It will be impossible for me to look at the screen behind the one2six in real casino. Also I noticed that the version of software doesn’t mean anything. For exemple I found some cheating machine using software 2.4 and 3.4 and some non cheating ones using same.
I understand what do you mean about the randomness and maybe I didn’t express myself properly.
What I meant is that I want to make sure that I’m playing a fair game with an HE of 0.5% (more or less spending on rules) and not playing a cheating shuffle with HE of 1.5% or even 3% etc …
I guess it’s difficult to know if the machine cheat just little bit like giving HE of 0.7% instead of 0.5% but if the csm is cheating enough and give HE of 1.5% or more (still playing basic strategy) then it should be possible with some stats or observations to find out pretty quick that the casino is setting the machine to win 1% additional on the basic strategy player right ?
I mean playing -1.5% game or -0.5% game can be find out in a couple of hours or days for sure right ?
Thank you
October 22nd, 2024 at 8:42:27 AM
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Quote: Jean26Hey Heatmap and thank you for your answer.
It will be impossible for me to look at the screen behind the one2six in real casino. Also I noticed that the version of software doesn’t mean anything. For exemple I found some cheating machine using software 2.4 and 3.4 and some non cheating ones using same.
I understand what do you mean about the randomness and maybe I didn’t express myself properly.
What I meant is that I want to make sure that I’m playing a fair game with an HE of 0.5% (more or less spending on rules) and not playing a cheating shuffle with HE of 1.5% or even 3% etc …
I guess it’s difficult to know if the machine cheat just little bit like giving HE of 0.7% instead of 0.5% but if the csm is cheating enough and give HE of 1.5% or more (still playing basic strategy) then it should be possible with some stats or observations to find out pretty quick that the casino is setting the machine to win 1% additional on the basic strategy player right ?
I mean playing -1.5% game or -0.5% game can be find out in a couple of hours or days for sure right ?
Thank you
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The HE depends on the rules of the games you are playing. As in what are the rules of the blackjack games? Is it a 2 deck, 6 deck? Is does the dealer hit on soft 17? This HE doesn’t vary until you change the game you are playing maybe you might go from a 2 deck to a 6 deck.
Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.
October 22nd, 2024 at 8:47:42 AM
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Quote: heatmap
Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.
It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.
https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
October 22nd, 2024 at 8:49:08 AM
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Let’s say I’m playing csm with S17 DAS replit AS where we are going to loose around 0.45% of our bet in the long run playing perfect basic strategy.
My question is when some casinos are using shuffles to get more money than they should, how to know we are going to loose 1.5%, or 5% or even 10% instead of 0.45% in the long run ?
What kind of observations or statistics could tell us quick enough that the csm is taking way more money than if we were playing against shoe ?
Thank you
My question is when some casinos are using shuffles to get more money than they should, how to know we are going to loose 1.5%, or 5% or even 10% instead of 0.45% in the long run ?
What kind of observations or statistics could tell us quick enough that the csm is taking way more money than if we were playing against shoe ?
Thank you
October 22nd, 2024 at 10:45:37 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: heatmap
Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.
It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.
https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx
link to original post
Yeah but those arent in production inside a casino ;) Sure he can get one for himself but this post is seemingly about casinos and their ability to alter the HE based on a shuffle from them.... i think
October 22nd, 2024 at 10:53:20 AM
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Quote: Jean26Let’s say I’m playing csm with S17 DAS replit AS where we are going to loose around 0.45% of our bet in the long run playing perfect basic strategy.
I like how this started out
Quote: Jean26My question is when some casinos are using shuffles to get more money than they should,
Of course what the shuffle manufacturers claim is that the shuffler provides more profit because they are getting more rounds of blackjack per hour compared to hand shuffling... i would say the casinos are capped by the amount of tables they have open and the maximum betting limit per table... but there is no set amount a profit a casino can obtain i dont think at least where i live ... another one of those statements where you cant say random should be a certain thing
Quote: Jean26how to know we are going to loose 1.5%, or 5% or even 10% instead of 0.45% in the long run ?
This is kind of one of those statements that i was talking about that you cant assume... This kind of thing isnt correlated to the shuffler... in a legal jurisdiction at least (not that i have proof of a rigged shuffler in any jurisdiction and i have alot of proof of things like that for everything except a shuffler)
You CAN continually lose forever in a random environment... there is no guarantee your supposed to win anything. The opposite CAN be true too.
This is what luck is, a random, uncontrollable event. You know who is controlling the ELEMENTS (aka the rules of the game)?
The casino is controlling the rules. If you go to different casinos in different jurisdictions, the rules are altered slightly in order for the casinos to make more money. In pennsylvania, the casinos hate that they cant have worse rules. The casinos are greedy and are trying everything to get the rules to be worse for the player but Pennsylvanias gaming commision is slightly in favor of the player. They know the casinos are greedy and are making so so so much money either way.
The HE is a FUNCTION of the RULES of the game.
Quote: Jean26
What kind of observations or statistics could tell us quick enough that the csm is taking way more money than if we were playing against shoe ?
Once again you cant correlate any of this to the shuffler but the rules of the game you are playing
Last edited by: heatmap on Oct 22, 2024
October 22nd, 2024 at 11:10:23 AM
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Quote: heatmapQuote: DRichQuote: heatmap
Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.
It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.
https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx
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Yeah but those arent in production inside a casino ;) Sure he can get one for himself but this post is seemingly about casinos and their ability to alter the HE based on a shuffle from them.... i think
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Are you sure about that? I thought the Shufflemaster Deckmate 1 & 2 were still in use in some casinos and I am pretty sure the One2Six is also in use.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
October 22nd, 2024 at 11:16:25 AM
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Drich, I bought one2six long long time ago. It was not cheating. I’m not here to look for another machine which 99% will be not cheating.
I’m looking for a way to check if the one2six I’m playing in not given me more disadvantage that it should and how to analyse that in real time. It can be number of 20 or 21 that bank get etc etc …
I’m not looking to know how they cheat (probably too hard to figure out without computer) but just give me an idea with some statistics at the table to know if the machine I’m playing against is fair about the disadvantage that it gives me.
I’m looking for a way to check if the one2six I’m playing in not given me more disadvantage that it should and how to analyse that in real time. It can be number of 20 or 21 that bank get etc etc …
I’m not looking to know how they cheat (probably too hard to figure out without computer) but just give me an idea with some statistics at the table to know if the machine I’m playing against is fair about the disadvantage that it gives me.
October 22nd, 2024 at 11:19:14 AM
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You have a one to six... i say load your own game on to it... then play each game compared to each other and i can almost bet youll find out where the money goes
October 22nd, 2024 at 11:20:53 AM
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Quote: DRichQuote: heatmapQuote: DRichQuote: heatmap
Also I know it’s impossible to get to the screen and see the stats it was somewhat of a joke.
It is not that hard. Many are for sale here.
https://www.americangamingsupply.com/automatic-card-shuffler.aspx
link to original post
Yeah but those arent in production inside a casino ;) Sure he can get one for himself but this post is seemingly about casinos and their ability to alter the HE based on a shuffle from them.... i think
link to original post
Are you sure about that? I thought the Shufflemaster Deckmate 1 & 2 were still in use in some casinos and I am pretty sure the One2Six is also in use.
link to original post
Oh i meant in general not like that they arent being used ... if i purchased a shuffler online i would assume that it had gone through a decommissioning process to wipe internal memories and programs.
I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"
Quote: Jean26Drich, I bought one2six long long time ago. It was not cheating. I’m not here to look for another machine which 99% will be not cheating.
I’m looking for a way to check if the one2six I’m playing in not given me more disadvantage that it should and how to analyse that in real time. It can be number of 20 or 21 that bank get etc etc …
I’m not looking to know how they cheat (probably too hard to figure out without computer) but just give me an idea with some statistics at the table to know if the machine I’m playing against is fair about the disadvantage that it gives me.
link to original post
Which is what i think this guy is talking about... he assumes a particular machine at a particular table is cheating him maybe...
October 22nd, 2024 at 1:22:04 PM
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Quote: heatmap
I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"
I would assume the opposite. I can't imagine a scenario where they would change the code in the shuffler. Granted, there would be no history but I would assume it will shuffle exactly like it did before.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
October 22nd, 2024 at 5:12:33 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: heatmap
I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"
I would assume the opposite. I can't imagine a scenario where they would change the code in the shuffler. Granted, there would be no history but I would assume it will shuffle exactly like it did before.
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So there is a history for say it’s lifetime use … let’s say that the history isn’t wiped after it’s turned off or sold to someone… can that info be useful in any way
October 22nd, 2024 at 5:19:38 PM
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Also from what I understand there is some kind of monitor or way to connect to the shuffler to see this info
October 22nd, 2024 at 5:47:37 PM
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Quote: DRichQuote: heatmap
I would never trust the shuffler would be anywhere near the "casino's production version"
I would assume the opposite. I can't imagine a scenario where they would change the code in the shuffler. Granted, there would be no history but I would assume it will shuffle exactly like it did before.
link to original post
I'm inclined to agree.
If a machine is gaffed, I expect it to go through an industrial scrap shredder and become confetti, not sold to a refurbisher.
May the cards fall in your favor.
October 23rd, 2024 at 4:43:38 AM
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Quote: Jean26Hello,
I was wondering what would be the best way and best statistics to check to find out if a csm is random and provide a fair shuffle (HE about 0.5% playing basic strategy).
Thank you
link to original post
Ive had first-hand ezperience with all 3 forms of shuffling: manual(dealer), ASM and CSM. ASM is like a robotic dealer. I think a dealer can cheat more easily than ASM. But leave em alone. I exclude cheating by dealers. If it happens it is very very rare.
Bj Players have a problem with CSM. Many think Csms can be programmed to cheat. I think it would require very sophisticated software. I dont think the CSM chips can handle it.
Once I compared the 2 types of shuffle in the same casino. The dealer busted more often in manual shuffling. more like the expected odds. My CSM dealer busted noticeably less. However I didn’t see signs of cheating (like hitting buttons or have you).
I think most players look at the cards on the table. They expect certain cards to come up next. it doesnt happen cuz the cards are continuously scrambled. I saw many high cards on the table. I expected lower cards next and I hit. Yet the continuous shuffle hits me with another high card, as it were.
Look at my experience with the Online Blackjack at this site. I talked in this thread: Card Counting Quirks?. Card counting misses on negative count opportunities.
It is probability. Negative counts have more double down opportunities (6+4, 6+5, 5+5 etc.) After two stiff hands, the chance is bigger to get 10s as the 3rd card, Or the dealer gets a high card and busts. You look at a screenshot of my play. I had a big bet in a double up. 6+3, I DD against dealer’s 6. I got 9, dealer had 10 hc and drew another 10.
My reasoning doesn’t work the same way with CSM cuz it scrambles the cards continuously. Dealer can push upfront a 3 instead of a 10 without cheating. The machine did it. It happens and it is random.
Last edited by: toolyp on Oct 23, 2024
October 23rd, 2024 at 6:38:02 AM
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Quote: toolyp
Bj Players have a problem with CSM. Many think Csms can be programmed to cheat. I think it would require very sophisticated software. I dont think the CSM chips can handle it.
Nah the actual rigged shuffle can be implemented by a 12 year old it’s a pretty simple algorithm
October 23rd, 2024 at 7:29:03 AM
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i wat your help can you reply me
October 23rd, 2024 at 9:29:07 AM
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Quote: heatmapQuote: toolyp
Bj Players have a problem with CSM. Many think Csms can be programmed to cheat. I think it would require very sophisticated software. I dont think the CSM chips can handle it.
Nah the actual rigged shuffle can be implemented by a 12 year old it’s a pretty simple algorithm
link to original post
Im sure you are older so you should know better. Im not asking you for the machine language code … not even the simple algorithm. Just give us a few steps on how rigged shuffle can be implemented. How can the machine detect number of players at the table? rigged is impossible without it. Otherwise It could hurt the dealer not only some players. CSMs could bankrupt a casino in a few years.
Im also sure that FBI or other agencies deciphered the chip codes of CSMs long ago. If foul play, all casino bosses and CSM/ASM manufacturers would have ended up as Don Teflon (no, not our illustrious Don!) Nobody can buy out FBI.
I stand by my point. CSMs make a bad impression on BJ players for the reasons I presented in my previous post. I believe CSMs are as random as ASMs and dealers.
October 23rd, 2024 at 12:42:59 PM
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Quote: toolypQuote: heatmapQuote: toolyp
Bj Players have a problem with CSM. Many think Csms can be programmed to cheat. I think it would require very sophisticated software. I dont think the CSM chips can handle it.
Nah the actual rigged shuffle can be implemented by a 12 year old it’s a pretty simple algorithm
link to original post
Im sure you are older so you should know better. Im not asking you for the machine language code … not even the simple algorithm. Just give us a few steps on how rigged shuffle can be implemented. How can the machine detect number of players at the table? rigged is impossible without it. Otherwise It could hurt the dealer not only some players. CSMs could bankrupt a casino in a few years.
Im also sure that FBI or other agencies deciphered the chip codes of CSMs long ago. If foul play, all casino bosses and CSM/ASM manufacturers would have ended up as Don Teflon (no, not our illustrious Don!) Nobody can buy out FBI.
I stand by my point. CSMs make a bad impression on BJ players for the reasons I presented in my previous post. I believe CSMs are as random as ASMs and dealers.
link to original post
Well it know the number of players because it’s a maximum number of players at a table… 9 usually
And the algorithm is completely different than a rng. The rng helps pick a random number and the algorithm first picks a winning overall hand for the first part with the help of the rng. There is a total of 100 hands in a list and the rng picks a number one through one hundred. Next every player gets what’s called a deviation score. This is also chosen by a random number generator. This deviation score is the distance your hand is from the winning hand.
This is for sure an oversimplified description. Let’s see if drich gets the joke ;)
And the other one I know about which I don’t consider to be rigged is based off of the amount you can win in one pot but that is strictly chosen by the strength of your hand which is essentially a probability. You can generate random numbers based on probabilities as well (think excel and how they allow you to generate random numbers based on a probability table)
Tbh, I’m just not sure you understand what random actually means . Maybe you can show us your own definition and I will show you the legal definitions in each jurisdiction and compare it to your definition.
October 23rd, 2024 at 2:26:58 PM
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On my home game, I'm just losing so bad I have to get ahead in tournament mode with big prizes and potential big losses. But here's a moment in time, today, where my negative count is $10 higher than the absolute value of my game play net. I usually play with progressions and the negative count is usually positive and the 0 count is near $0 plus or minus, and the positive count is hugely negative, in this case nearly double the loss of my negative count win. This is over thousands of hands but I don't have a hand count but I came up from a $5K start again. My computers keep crashing and I have to reinstall and start over. I don't buy in to card counters claims to wong out on negative counts, but I don't bet like they do and I don't count. My game play net could have been $50K to the positive but I didn't call a winning session a winning session and was immediately brought back down in a hurry after a winning streak. So I'm almost $50K in the red on regular play. I've been playing $10K & $20K buy-in sessions lately.
I'm going to rewrite my strategy soon and go after this game again.
I'm going to rewrite my strategy soon and go after this game again.
October 24th, 2024 at 1:11:29 AM
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Hi to all !
We have long ago done an analysis of mixing and returning cards on our own shuffle machines. We conducted the experiment under ideal technical conditions, so we have no doubt about the accuracy of the result. We did it on Shuffle Master(one-2-six), and other brands.
The manufacturer does not make algorithms that in any way reduce the player's advantage. but each machine has its own special algorithm, and in some cases a professional player with this knowledge can gain a significant advantage.
p.s. - for obvious reasons I will not post the results of the study in an open forum. But if you are seriously interested, write to me in PM, maybe we can come to an agreement.
We have long ago done an analysis of mixing and returning cards on our own shuffle machines. We conducted the experiment under ideal technical conditions, so we have no doubt about the accuracy of the result. We did it on Shuffle Master(one-2-six), and other brands.
The manufacturer does not make algorithms that in any way reduce the player's advantage. but each machine has its own special algorithm, and in some cases a professional player with this knowledge can gain a significant advantage.
p.s. - for obvious reasons I will not post the results of the study in an open forum. But if you are seriously interested, write to me in PM, maybe we can come to an agreement.
October 24th, 2024 at 5:02:18 AM
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October 24th, 2024 at 9:39:30 AM
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Quote: toolypQuote: heatmapQuote: toolyp
Bj Players have a problem with CSM. Many think Csms can be programmed to cheat. I think it would require very sophisticated software. I dont think the CSM chips can handle it.
Nah the actual rigged shuffle can be implemented by a 12 year old it’s a pretty simple algorithm
link to original post
Im sure you are older so you should know better. Im not asking you for the machine language code … not even the simple algorithm. Just give us a few steps on how rigged shuffle can be implemented. How can the machine detect number of players at the table? rigged is impossible without it. Otherwise It could hurt the dealer not only some players. CSMs could bankrupt a casino in a few years.
Im also sure that FBI or other agencies deciphered the chip codes of CSMs long ago. If foul play, all casino bosses and CSM/ASM manufacturers would have ended up as Don Teflon (no, not our illustrious Don!) Nobody can buy out FBI.
I stand by my point. CSMs make a bad impression on BJ players for the reasons I presented in my previous post. I believe CSMs are as random as ASMs and dealers.
link to original post
Puzzle: Blackjack threads here get only hundreds of views in quite long periods of time. Still Norms blackjack threads get easily dozen-thousand views during the same lengths of time. What gives? Is it green acres, retirement, fantasizing… you have it… Or is it like CSM stats?
October 24th, 2024 at 10:17:03 AM
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You don’t get the point …
Csm are not like manual shoe, there is different algorithms in different casinos and some of them (not the majority) are not fair to the player. That’s a clear fact.
My post was more how to detect if the casino we are playing is fair to the players
Csm are not like manual shoe, there is different algorithms in different casinos and some of them (not the majority) are not fair to the player. That’s a clear fact.
My post was more how to detect if the casino we are playing is fair to the players
October 24th, 2024 at 10:43:52 AM
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Shufflers can deduce the number of players at the bj table from pattern analysis: there are 2n cards drawn consecutively at the start of each round, where n-1 are the number of players hands.
Most modern shufflers can identify and record the cards as they are being dealt - in case the house security needs to recreate the shuffle. Once you know the identity of cards, it is straightforward to write algorithms for skewing the game by occasionally affecting the third card that dealer draws so as to assure that it is a non-bust card.
The way I would attempt to evaluate the integrity of a shuffler is to evaluate the frequency that a dealer busts.
Most modern shufflers can identify and record the cards as they are being dealt - in case the house security needs to recreate the shuffle. Once you know the identity of cards, it is straightforward to write algorithms for skewing the game by occasionally affecting the third card that dealer draws so as to assure that it is a non-bust card.
The way I would attempt to evaluate the integrity of a shuffler is to evaluate the frequency that a dealer busts.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 24th, 2024 at 11:01:13 AM
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What you are pointing is exactly what I can observe in those casinos where the shuffle doesn’t seem fair. Finally someone who say something meaningful. Thank you !
October 24th, 2024 at 11:26:02 AM
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Gordonm888,
Would it be quicker to focus on the third card of the dealer instead of the bust rate which can take long time to evaluate ?
Also I have another simple question, sometime I see 2 différents shuffler which seem to have fair game cause stats look fine in the long term but the cards coming out seem to come differently on the table. The cards look way more messy and the dealer could draw more cards to bust for exemple than the simpler and older softwares. Usually old software (I presume those are olders) look simpler than new shuffle which look more messy and complicated. I don’t understand the purpose of having different type of shuffles but I just want to make sure that you agree that if stats look fine but shuffle look different then the game is still fair to the player ?
Thank you
Would it be quicker to focus on the third card of the dealer instead of the bust rate which can take long time to evaluate ?
Also I have another simple question, sometime I see 2 différents shuffler which seem to have fair game cause stats look fine in the long term but the cards coming out seem to come differently on the table. The cards look way more messy and the dealer could draw more cards to bust for exemple than the simpler and older softwares. Usually old software (I presume those are olders) look simpler than new shuffle which look more messy and complicated. I don’t understand the purpose of having different type of shuffles but I just want to make sure that you agree that if stats look fine but shuffle look different then the game is still fair to the player ?
Thank you
October 24th, 2024 at 6:46:02 PM
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Quote: Jean26the shuffle doesn’t seem fair
link to original post
all that i was saying is that your perception of what random is, and what its supposed to be is wrong... you cant think like that. In random ALL of the patterns that you think shouldnt happen are guaranteed to happen. You cant say random is supposed to be something like i keep saying.
October 25th, 2024 at 2:39:59 AM
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Quote: gordonm888Shufflers can deduce the number of players at the bj table from pattern analysis: there are 2n cards drawn consecutively at the start of each round, where n-1 are the number of players hands.
Most modern shufflers can identify and record the cards as they are being dealt - in case the house security needs to recreate the shuffle. Once you know the identity of cards, it is straightforward to write algorithms for skewing the game by occasionally affecting the third card that dealer draws so as to assure that it is a non-bust card.
The way I would attempt to evaluate the integrity of a shuffler is to evaluate the frequency that a dealer busts.
link to original post
“Shufflers can deduce the number of players at the bj table from pattern analysis: there are 2n cards drawn consecutively at the start of each round, where n-1 are the number of players hands.”
Good observation. Its perfect for a full table. Still can mess up the casino if fewer players at table. If 5 players instead of 7 and the first 2 draw 2 cards each. CSM would then count 2 extra players. The shuffler then could hurt the dealer and benefit another player.
“Most modern shufflers can identify and record the cards as they are being dealt - in case the house security needs to recreate the shuffle.”
Now that’s troubling! Does the machine have buttons like “Redo”/“Replay” and “New Shuffle”/”Reset”? Jean26 can tell what buttons his machine has.
“The way I would attempt to evaluate the integrity of a shuffler is to evaluate the frequency that a dealer busts.”
I made that point in my first post. “Once I compared the 2 types of shuffle in the same casino. The dealer busted more often in manual shuffling. more like the expected odds. My CSM dealer busted noticeably less.”
I also noticed (perception?) more dealer BJs (10 first card) with CSM. But I didnt record anything on paper or cellphone.
It sure is a good idea to remember each hand you got from CSM. If I had something like 9+5hit8bust and my hand is repeated then I cry foul. FBI is in the house and should get alerted.
Last edited by: toolyp on Oct 25, 2024
October 25th, 2024 at 11:33:09 AM
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Quote: Jean26You don’t get the point …
Csm are not like manual shoe, there is different algorithms in different casinos and some of them (not the majority) are not fair to the player. That’s a clear fact.
My post was more how to detect if the casino we are playing is fair to the players
link to original post
If we are talking about a 6-deck game. Then it is possible that the machine releases fewer high-denomination cards into the game. This can be checked in an elementary way.
I think there is no instant cheating with the machine against the player, because firstly there is a "nose" in which the cards that came from the "drum" are already lying, and their order cannot be changed.
The machine (some) can remember in which cell of the drum it put highly positive cards, but this is in theory, I do not believe that the owners of the Las Vegas casinos do this.
October 25th, 2024 at 11:35:47 AM
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need your help
October 25th, 2024 at 11:55:13 AM
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October 25th, 2024 at 11:57:18 AM
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Quote: toolypQuote: gordonm888Shufflers can deduce the number of players at the bj table from pattern analysis: there are 2n cards drawn consecutively at the start of each round, where n-1 are the number of players hands.
Most modern shufflers can identify and record the cards as they are being dealt - in case the house security needs to recreate the shuffle. Once you know the identity of cards, it is straightforward to write algorithms for skewing the game by occasionally affecting the third card that dealer draws so as to assure that it is a non-bust card.
The way I would attempt to evaluate the integrity of a shuffler is to evaluate the frequency that a dealer busts.
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“Shufflers can deduce the number of players at the bj table from pattern analysis: there are 2n cards drawn consecutively at the start of each round, where n-1 are the number of players hands.”
Good observation. Its perfect for a full table. Still can mess up the casino if fewer players at table. If 5 players instead of 7 and the first 2 draw 2 cards each. CSM would then count 2 extra players. The shuffler then could hurt the dealer and benefit another player.
“Most modern shufflers can identify and record the cards as they are being dealt - in case the house security needs to recreate the shuffle.”
Now that’s troubling! Does the machine have buttons like “Redo”/“Replay” and “New Shuffle”/”Reset”? Jean26 can tell what buttons his machine has.
“The way I would attempt to evaluate the integrity of a shuffler is to evaluate the frequency that a dealer busts.”
I made that point in my first post. “Once I compared the 2 types of shuffle in the same casino. The dealer busted more often in manual shuffling. more like the expected odds. My CSM dealer busted noticeably less.”
I also noticed (perception?) more dealer BJs (10 first card) with CSM. But I didnt record anything on paper or cellphone.
It sure is a good idea to remember each hand you got from CSM. If I had something like 9+5hit8bust and my hand is repeated then I cry foul. FBI is in the house and should get alerted.
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I made that point in my first post. “Once I compared the 2 types of shuffle in the same casino. The dealer busted more often in manual shuffling. more like the expected odds. My CSM dealer busted noticeably less.”
I also noticed (perception?) more dealer BJs (10 first card) with CSM. But I didnt record anything on paper or cellphone.
I was accompanied in that casino. My companion had the same kind of suspicions (busts and BJs). She also urged me to not HIT 14+ regardless of dealer’s upcard. “Thats why they didnt like you and pushed you out!” (We werent in Vegas, to be illegally forced out.) “You didnt play by the book and messed up their scheme.”
So I’ll say, ignore the book move some times, at least . Still, try to write down your hands, if possible. Maybe some people will file complaints if forcefully removed from the casino for writing down notes. Repeated hands are BAD signs for CSM. The first reaction should be “Show me the machine! I want to see the BUTTONS!” FBI should be next in line regards LEGAL COMPLAINTS.
Again its all about my perception. As I said I never saw a dealer hitting the machine (like buttons or have you). Also I never saw a casino employee watching a computer screen monitoring the CSM. If there is such screen, it can only RECORD each and every card in the game. It cant influence the machine chip in any way, if nobody watches the monitor. The screen is RAM, while the chip is ROM.
October 25th, 2024 at 12:09:57 PM
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Quote: DobrijQuote: Jean26You don’t get the point …
Csm are not like manual shoe, there is different algorithms in different casinos and some of them (not the majority) are not fair to the player. That’s a clear fact.
My post was more how to detect if the casino we are playing is fair to the players
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If we are talking about a 6-deck game. Then it is possible that the machine releases fewer high-denomination cards into the game. This can be checked in an elementary way.
I think there is no instant cheating with the machine against the player, because firstly there is a "nose" in which the cards that came from the "drum" are already lying, and their order cannot be changed.
The machine (some) can remember in which cell of the drum it put highly positive cards, but this is in theory, I do not believe that the owners of the Las Vegas casinos do this.
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Jeannot, show us your machines and the buttons. It’d clear the air big deal.
October 25th, 2024 at 8:55:53 PM
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why sir we need an article post can you help
