Quote:swimgamblesSo I have recently ventured to Spain for the summer and have begun going to a local casino on a occasional basis. I have never been to a casino that uses purely automatic shufflers, specifically the Shuffle Master (I know the tag number for the exact machine as well if important). So I am wondering how the odds are affected if at all. They generally play 6 deck blackjack with a shuffle after each hand to keep the deck even. Considering this typical odds would be 30.76% for a 10 or face card, 61.53% chance of 9-2, and 7.69% of an ace. But since the machine when automatically shuffling the previous hand does not affect the hand currently being dealt am I safe to assume that the cards in the previous hand will be discounted from those totals at a value of .325% per card (meaning say 3 kings were in the last hand it wound decrease the chance of a king in the next hand to ~6.7%)? As well they deal differently where dealer only receives one face up card until all player hit/stand movements are made, to which then the dealer deals themselves their second card / until 17 (standing on soft 17). How does this affect the probabilities in a general sense? I have been doing some math myself in an attempt to obviously improve my odds as best as possible. But since it automatically shuffles after each hand it renders card-counting essentially useless I believe. (If I am mistaken please feel free to correct my prior statement). I am planning on going again later this week to watch & count for a while and see how the number "zones" come out mathematically. I can admit I am not the greatest Blackjack player, as I tend to play poker more often than Blackjack, but I am interested in learning as much as possible about how to work around to increase player chances against automatic shufflers. If anyone is interested in where the math came from please feel free to ask and I will attach it.

link to original post

If you were playing heads up, then three kings out is more significant than if you saw three kings on a full table where 30 cards were seen due to splitting and lots of low cards.

I know that the changes in the probabilities were enough to make craps easily beatable for a game where a CSM was used in place of dice. For BJ, I guess the decrease in house edge using computer perfect play would be miniscule. You need high penetration before EOR becomes significant.

Quote:swimgamblesSo I have recently ventured to Spain for the summer and have begun going to a local casino on a occasional basis. I have never been to a casino that uses purely automatic shufflers, specifically the Shuffle Master (I know the tag number for the exact machine as well if important). So I am wondering how the odds are affected if at all. They generally play 6 deck blackjack with a shuffle after each hand to keep the deck even. Considering this typical odds would be 30.76% for a 10 or face card, 61.53% chance of 9-2, and 7.69% of an ace. But since the machine when automatically shuffling the previous hand does not affect the hand currently being dealt am I safe to assume that the cards in the previous hand will be discounted from those totals at a value of .325% per card (meaning say 3 kings were in the last hand it wound decrease the chance of a king in the next hand to ~6.7%)? As well they deal differently where dealer only receives one face up card until all player hit/stand movements are made, to which then the dealer deals themselves their second card / until 17 (standing on soft 17). How does this affect the probabilities in a general sense? I have been doing some math myself in an attempt to obviously improve my odds as best as possible. But since it automatically shuffles after each hand it renders card-counting essentially useless I believe. (If I am mistaken please feel free to correct my prior statement). I am planning on going again later this week to watch & count for a while and see how the number "zones" come out mathematically. I can admit I am not the greatest Blackjack player, as I tend to play poker more often than Blackjack, but I am interested in learning as much as possible about how to work around to increase player chances against automatic shufflers. If anyone is interested in where the math came from please feel free to ask and I will attach it.

link to original post

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I believe what you’re describing is a Continuous Shuffle Machine (CSM), as opposed to an Automatic Shuffle Machine (ASM). The distinction is mentioned here:

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/39238-counting-cards/#post929361

As for the dealers’ stance, I can’t think of anything other than what you mentioned as a viable reason…

The sister site, Wizard of Odds, has quite a bit of information and calculators regarding strategy for various blackjack games, as well as many other casino games. I believe it would be worth a look, and if you have specific questions, you’ll probably find members here are more likely to help someone who has done the research.

Quote:swimgamblesThank you for your response! I am new here and looking to learn obviously so this was helpful, unfortunately my local casino doesn't offer craps otherwise I would play that too. I guess that makes sense that high penetration would be necessary because of CSM and the 6 hand through the original deal it would be down to 294 cards total, and taking the math into account in the hypothetical situation I gave having 3 kings show-up in the original cards would be extremely minuscule approximately .96% if I did it correctly. Do you have any other advice for a somewhat new blackjack player on how to improve their play? I understand the concepts of when to hit, split, double, etc based on my cards dealers cards and a rough idea of my chances of a specific card based on the rest of the tables cards. But it seems somehow I tend to be one of the worse off players on the table and i'm looking to improve.

link to original post

Learn basic strategy, specifically one adjusted for the rules you have in your casino.

Michael Shackleford, who founded this site, has written many pages about blackjack at the "The Ultimate Blackjack Guide":

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/

Quote:MentalQuote:swimgamblesThank you for your response! I am new here and looking to learn obviously so this was helpful, unfortunately my local casino doesn't offer craps otherwise I would play that too. I guess that makes sense that high penetration would be necessary because of CSM and the 6 hand through the original deal it would be down to 294 cards total, and taking the math into account in the hypothetical situation I gave having 3 kings show-up in the original cards would be extremely minuscule approximately .96% if I did it correctly. Do you have any other advice for a somewhat new blackjack player on how to improve their play? I understand the concepts of when to hit, split, double, etc based on my cards dealers cards and a rough idea of my chances of a specific card based on the rest of the tables cards. But it seems somehow I tend to be one of the worse off players on the table and i'm looking to improve.

link to original post

Learn basic strategy, specifically one adjusted for the rules you have in your casino.

Michael Shackleford, who founded this site, has written many pages about blackjack at the "The Ultimate Blackjack Guide":

/games/blackjack/

link to original post

I will take a look at that site right now! I had been struggling to find a simulator that followed the same rules that this local casino uses, since I had never seen it before.

Quote:camaplQuote:swimgamblesSo I have recently ventured to Spain for the summer and have begun going to a local casino on a occasional basis. I have never been to a casino that uses purely automatic shufflers, specifically the Shuffle Master (I know the tag number for the exact machine as well if important). So I am wondering how the odds are affected if at all. They generally play 6 deck blackjack with a shuffle after each hand to keep the deck even. Considering this typical odds would be 30.76% for a 10 or face card, 61.53% chance of 9-2, and 7.69% of an ace. But since the machine when automatically shuffling the previous hand does not affect the hand currently being dealt am I safe to assume that the cards in the previous hand will be discounted from those totals at a value of .325% per card (meaning say 3 kings were in the last hand it wound decrease the chance of a king in the next hand to ~6.7%)? As well they deal differently where dealer only receives one face up card until all player hit/stand movements are made, to which then the dealer deals themselves their second card / until 17 (standing on soft 17). How does this affect the probabilities in a general sense? I have been doing some math myself in an attempt to obviously improve my odds as best as possible. But since it automatically shuffles after each hand it renders card-counting essentially useless I believe. (If I am mistaken please feel free to correct my prior statement). I am planning on going again later this week to watch & count for a while and see how the number "zones" come out mathematically. I can admit I am not the greatest Blackjack player, as I tend to play poker more often than Blackjack, but I am interested in learning as much as possible about how to work around to increase player chances against automatic shufflers. If anyone is interested in where the math came from please feel free to ask and I will attach it.

link to original post

Hello and welcome to the forum!

I believe what you’re describing is a Continuous Shuffle Machine (CSM), as opposed to an Automatic Shuffle Machine (ASM). The distinction is mentioned here:

/forum/gambling/blackjack/39238-counting-cards/#post929361

As for the dealers’ stance, I can’t think of anything other than what you mentioned as a viable reason…

The sister site, Wizard of Odds, has quite a bit of information and calculators regarding strategy for various blackjack games, as well as many other casino games. I believe it would be worth a look, and if you have specific questions, you’ll probably find members here are more likely to help someone who has done the research.

link to original post

Based on a very quick google search for the two, I can clearly tell it is a CSM. So I take it the difference is that CSM is always shuffling between hands at all times, whereas ASM just automatically shuffles cards once they are inserted but does not keep shuffling throughout?

You don't really want to start with training software. Just start with a basic strategy chart. You need to have a visual framework for what basic strategy looks like. Otherwise, you won't get as much out of a training program.

If you have not gambled much before, you may not realize how much luck still affects your results. Just because you lost more than others at the table does not mean that you were playing worse than them. If you play basic strategy, even without the exact rules, you will be playing better than most. But you can always get better with a little help.

Quote:swimgambles

Based on a very quick google search for the two, I can clearly tell it is a CSM. So I take it the difference is that CSM is always shuffling between hands at all times, whereas ASM just automatically shuffles cards once they are inserted but does not keep shuffling throughout?

link to original post

An ASM - or "batch shuffler" - is typically used to shuffle a second set of cards.

For example, the blue back cards are loaded in one side, and the shuffled deck of green back cards come out the other side.

The advantage for the casino is that the game needn't stop for two minutes while the dealer shuffles a 6 deck shoe; the cards can be exchanged ina few seconds.

And yes, a CSM usually shuffles the discards back into play every hand (or every other hand).

Welcome to the forum.

Quote:DieterQuote:swimgambles

Based on a very quick google search for the two, I can clearly tell it is a CSM. So I take it the difference is that CSM is always shuffling between hands at all times, whereas ASM just automatically shuffles cards once they are inserted but does not keep shuffling throughout?

link to original post

An ASM - or "batch shuffler" - is typically used to shuffle a second set of cards.

For example, the blue back cards are loaded in one side, and the shuffled deck of green back cards come out the other side.

The advantage for the casino is that the game needn't stop for two minutes while the dealer shuffles a 6 deck shoe; the cards can be exchanged ina few seconds.

And yes, a CSM usually shuffles the discards back into play every hand (or every other hand).

Welcome to the forum.

link to original post

I recall the problem at Morongo was that there were some cards in the chute ready to be pulled out by the dealer. Even if the cards from a given round were put back into the CSM, there is no way those specific cards could be in the chute and available for the current round.

https://discountgambling.net/playcraps/

How many cards are in the chute in a modern CSM? I have played at tables with an ASM but never a CSM.

Quote:MentalQuote:DieterQuote:swimgambles

Based on a very quick google search for the two, I can clearly tell it is a CSM. So I take it the difference is that CSM is always shuffling between hands at all times, whereas ASM just automatically shuffles cards once they are inserted but does not keep shuffling throughout?

link to original post

An ASM - or "batch shuffler" - is typically used to shuffle a second set of cards.

For example, the blue back cards are loaded in one side, and the shuffled deck of green back cards come out the other side.

The advantage for the casino is that the game needn't stop for two minutes while the dealer shuffles a 6 deck shoe; the cards can be exchanged ina few seconds.

And yes, a CSM usually shuffles the discards back into play every hand (or every other hand).

Welcome to the forum.

link to original post

I recall the problem at Morongo was that there were some cards in the chute ready to be pulled out by the dealer. Even if the cards from a given round were put back into the CSM, there is no way those specific cards could be in the chute and available for the current round.

/playcraps/

How many cards are in the chute in a modern CSM? I have played at tables with an ASM but never a CSM.

link to original post

This is still held true at least at my local casino here, where the current chute for the hand is already prepared before the cards from the previous round thus providing a small statistical difference in what is available for play. Although I am unsure if the CSM affects shuffles the cards that are used on hits & splits for the current hand. Since it is possible that the chute or the designated # of cards for the table are locked in before the previous deck is put in, but I don't know if CSM affects the following cards if players decide to hit and or split.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/35471-csm-tables/#post790664

I was looking for this thread when I posted the other links in my prior post. If you read through the banter and the nay-saying at the beginning of the thread, you’ll find a discussion of potential CSM countability, as well as at least one link to where it is discussed further. If these don’t take you there, another source for determining countability and its value, etc, for various table games can be found by googling “AP Heat”. The creator of that site, who has sold the site and retired, has continued to post here from time to time…

Quote:Mental

How many cards are in the chute in a modern CSM? I have played at tables with an ASM but never a CSM.

link to original post

Now you're delving into wiggly obscura.

If memory serves, divide the deck size by 19 horses on the carousel (for most shufflers I've read up on), so a five deck would be about a 13 card slug. That's going to vary, depending on when exactly the next slug is pushed out, but I would never expect more than 1.5 slugs in the chute.

If none of that makes sense, I humbly suggest not trying to count a CSM.

Quote:camaplHere is another thread that discusses the difference between shufflers…

/forum/gambling/blackjack/35471-csm-tables/#post790664

I was looking for this thread when I posted the other links in my prior post. If you read through the banter and the nay-saying at the beginning of the thread, you’ll find a discussion of potential CSM countability, as well as at least one link to where it is discussed further. If these don’t take you there, another source for determining countability and its value, etc, for various table games can be found by googling “AP Heat”. The creator of that site, who has sold the site and retired, has continued to post here from time to time…

link to original post

Thank you so much, everyone here has been extremely helpful. I returned to the casino last night and had a good night ending a bit positive but overall seeming quite even especially when paying attention to the cards probabilities of appearing.

Quote:Dieter(snip!)

Quote:Mental

How many cards are in the chute in a modern CSM? I have played at tables with an ASM but never a CSM.

link to original post

Now you're delving into wiggly obscura.

If memory serves, divide the deck size by 19 horses on the carousel (for most shufflers I've read up on), so a five deck would be about a 13 card slug. That's going to vary, depending on when exactly the next slug is pushed out, but I would never expect more than 1.5 slugs in the chute.

If none of that makes sense, I humbly suggest not trying to count a CSM.

link to original post

I agree, I have tried to count a CSM and it does not play well in your favor especially without any knowledge of how long the chute is or even an estimate of it does not give enough information to make counting a valid strategy. Based on continuing to play the easiest and most effective strategy is play book blackjack and hope that you don't get unlucky with the shuffle or screwed over by the other players at the table (which is very possible especially here for some reason).

Thirteen cards is more than enough to make craps countable. In fact, any cards in the chute boosts the odds in craps on the dark side even for players who are not counting.Quote:Dieter(snip!)

Quote:Mental

How many cards are in the chute in a modern CSM? I have played at tables with an ASM but never a CSM.

link to original post

Now you're delving into wiggly obscura.

If memory serves, divide the deck size by 19 horses on the carousel (for most shufflers I've read up on), so a five deck would be about a 13 card slug. That's going to vary, depending on when exactly the next slug is pushed out, but I would never expect more than 1.5 slugs in the chute.

If none of that makes sense, I humbly suggest not trying to count a CSM.

link to original post

People made a lot of money on this 'obscura'.

Quote:MentalThirteen cards is more than enough to make craps countable. In fact, any cards in the chute boosts the odds in craps on the dark side even for players who are not counting.Quote:Dieter(snip!)

Quote:Mental

How many cards are in the chute in a modern CSM? I have played at tables with an ASM but never a CSM.

link to original post

Now you're delving into wiggly obscura.

If memory serves, divide the deck size by 19 horses on the carousel (for most shufflers I've read up on), so a five deck would be about a 13 card slug. That's going to vary, depending on when exactly the next slug is pushed out, but I would never expect more than 1.5 slugs in the chute.

If none of that makes sense, I humbly suggest not trying to count a CSM.

link to original post

People made a lot of money on this 'obscura'.

link to original post

Very good point.

I wouldn't try counting blackjack on a CSM.

(And as I generally dislike all forms of craps, I don't even think of trying to count the dice game.)

Quote:MentalThirteen cards is more than enough to make craps countable. In fact, any cards in the chute boosts the odds in craps on the dark side even for players who are not counting.Quote:Dieter(snip!)

Quote:Mental

How many cards are in the chute in a modern CSM? I have played at tables with an ASM but never a CSM.

link to original post

Now you're delving into wiggly obscura.

If memory serves, divide the deck size by 19 horses on the carousel (for most shufflers I've read up on), so a five deck would be about a 13 card slug. That's going to vary, depending on when exactly the next slug is pushed out, but I would never expect more than 1.5 slugs in the chute.

If none of that makes sense, I humbly suggest not trying to count a CSM.

link to original post

People made a lot of money on this 'obscura'.

link to original post

Ah I don't really know how to play craps, and I am unsure if my casino even offers it currently.

Quote:MorstanaReally interesting discussion! Regarding the use of Shuffle Masters, my understanding is that since each hand is dealt from a freshly shuffled deck, the odds of drawing any specific card remain constant across hands. This means the previous hand's composition won't affect the odds in the next hand. This constant reshuffling essentially negates any advantage that card counting might offer, as every hand resets the deck. Would love to hear more about any observations or strategies when playing under these conditions!

link to original post

What you describe would slow the game down. The dealer would have to insert the mucked cards into the CSM and wait for it to shuffle. To avoid this delay, there are a small number of cards in a chute ready to be dealt right away. The most recently mucked cards cannot get to the chute until these cards are dealt.

The result is that the probabilities are in fact different for each hand dealt from a CSM. The 'penetration' might only be 10 cards out of 300, so this isn't enough to get a high count for BJ. For card-dealt craps, it was enough to make a difference.

Quote:MentalQuote:MorstanaReally interesting discussion! Regarding the use of Shuffle Masters, my understanding is that since each hand is dealt from a freshly shuffled deck, the odds of drawing any specific card remain constant across hands. This means the previous hand's composition won't affect the odds in the next hand. This constant reshuffling essentially negates any advantage that card counting might offer, as every hand resets the deck. Would love to hear more about any observations or strategies when playing under these conditions!

link to original post

What you describe would slow the game down. The dealer would have to insert the mucked cards into the CSM and wait for it to shuffle. To avoid this delay, there are a small number of cards in a chute ready to be dealt right away. The most recently mucked cards cannot get to the chute until these cards are dealt.

The result is that the probabilities are in fact different for each hand dealt from a CSM. The 'penetration' might only be 10 cards out of 300, so this isn't enough to get a high count for BJ. For card-dealt craps, it was enough to make a difference.

link to original post

I’d be curious to read what anyone who plays blackjack regularly thinks of this article from over 10 years about counting blackjack dealt from a CSM…

https://discountgambling.net/2012/07/27/counting-csm-blackjack-ev/

Specifically, would you expect to be able to spread bets wildly and/or sit out hands at a CSM under current casino conditions? (I already know that the answer begins with “it depends”! lol) The author implies that there is an edge to be had because of the lack of heat on CSM games. Does this still hold true?

If anyone doesn’t care to post, a PM would be a welcome alternative. Thanks!