teliot
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
• Posts: 2159
April 2nd, 2021 at 3:38:32 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Yes, these amounts 1.4 and 2.4 increase in house advantage are ON TOP of the roughly .5 house advantage for most game. So upwards of 2% for 6:5, which is what I said. The even money was just a guess. Looks like I was a bit off, maybe 3% total instead of 4%. Either way....I am not playing this game. :/

Disagree. Standard 3/2 single deck has a house edge of 0.18%. If you simply change standard single deck 3/2 to 6/5 then the house edge is about 1.6%. This is what happened in 2003, when hole-carding single deck blackjack suddenly was all the rage and the top AP's laughed at the whining counters all over these boards. In other words, 6/5 blackjack, for a time, was the best thing that ever happened to AP's.

But yes, for standard games, like 6D, DOA, DAS, H17 (with a 0.61% h/a), the edge did move to 2%.

Sorry, I edited my post after you quoted, giving exact values for 1 & 8 decks.
Personal website: www.ijmp.org
kewlj
Joined: Apr 17, 2012
• Posts: 4270
April 2nd, 2021 at 3:41:46 PM permalink
Single deck, S17, 3:2. Can I borrow your time machine Eliot?

Um...the OP said 6 deck, by the way.
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2324
April 2nd, 2021 at 3:44:38 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I forget what how much BJ paying even money adds to house advantage....

It's 2.27% according to https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/ . As a broad brush, infinite deck, the chance of a Player BJ is 8/169 = 4.73% so a winning one is 4.51% (4.73%x(1-4.73%)). You don't win (i.e. lose) 0.5 every time you win a BJ, so it costs you 4.51/2 = 2.255%. The chance of a BJ is slightly more with finite decks, hence the 2.27%.
teliot
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
• Posts: 2159
April 2nd, 2021 at 3:47:55 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

Single deck, S17, 3:2. Can I borrow your time machine Eliot?

Um...the OP said 6 deck, by the way.

That 1D, S17, DOA game has almost a perfect 0.0% house edge. I meant the 1D, H17, DOA game that you could find all over town up until the early 2000's. That's the one with the 0.18% house edge.

Yes, there were better games back then, like hole-carding 3CP with superstar flashers in every casino.

We used to play a game walking from downtown to the Western ... even money that you would either see a shirtless guy being arrested or get propositioned or get offered drugs on the walk there. Those were the days!
Personal website: www.ijmp.org
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2324
Thanks for this post from:
April 2nd, 2021 at 4:43:54 PM permalink
I ran a very quick (and unchecked other than looking at examples where the dealer does hit 18 vs player's 19) simulation using UK rules (as that's what I had to hand). In essence only changing the code so it never splits nor doubles, player hits various hard totals (e.g. 15v6) as per revised strategy and soft totals as normal, BJ pays 1/1. The result over 10m six deck shoes was 11.635% ouch!

fwiw the number of winning BJs was 22,712,213 out of 478,645,929, so the loss of 1/2 represented 2.373%.

It would be interesting what the effect would be if the same rules applied but you saw both dealer's cards, The main advantage is seeing dealer's hard totals 14 and higher, as you would hit rather than stand and lose, or occasionally (e.g. 86) be able to stand on 14-16.
etony33
Joined: Feb 2, 2014
• Posts: 23
Thanks for this post from:
April 3rd, 2021 at 9:45:55 AM permalink
Thank you, I really appreciate that.
Gandler
Joined: Jan 27, 2014
• Posts: 1491
April 3rd, 2021 at 3:56:36 PM permalink
Quote: etony33

So, there's an old video game that has a little blackjack minigame you can play. The rules are as follows:

-Just you and the dealer, I'm assuming continuous shuffler and 6+ decks
-No double, split, or surrender
- Blackjack is 1:1, dealer doesn't check for blackjack until after you play
-Dealer will always hit if he would otherwise lose! If you have 20 and the dealer has 19, dealer hits.

Basic strategy would be completely different, of course, but does anyone have a basic idea of just how bad the house edge would be? I'm thinking at least 15%.

What game is this? (The video game that the blackjack minigame is in).
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 2818
April 3rd, 2021 at 5:03:54 PM permalink
I don't think anyone has answered the OP.

1. If you stand on 15 vs 6 and the dealer reveals a Ten for a 16, then dealer wins without drawing a card.

2. If you have an 18 vs dealer 7, and dealer turns over a ten, then dealer continues to hit until he beats (or ties?) your 17 or until he busts.

So, gameplay strategy for the player is totally different, because dealer bases his decisions on what the player's hand total is. And I doubt that player has the same strategy vs Ace as he does vs 5.

It obviously is a terribly one-sided game, but arguing about blackjack doesn't address the main issue.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
charliepatrick
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
• Posts: 2324
April 3rd, 2021 at 5:21:11 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

I don't think anyone has answered the OP.

Sorry before running the simulation I did a very quick infinite deck spreadsheet. I only looked at 2 thru 10 and it suggested
2: Hit 15
3-6: Hit 14
7: Hit 15
8-9: Hit 16
10: Hit 15
I also assumed you hit soft totals as normal. However as I hadn't put much thought or indeed checked my results, I didn't want to imply that these are necessarily correct, but hopefully close enough to get an idea of whether the House Edge is reasonable or horrendous.

If I had had more time I would have run similations by altering the hit cutoffs, but the one run gave a quick estimate (11.6%) of where the game was - i.e. avoid where possible.

I've come across this "14" cutoff on boats' Pontoon, where essentially you have to stand and pray the dealer busts. This low cutoff, and the fact that it applies to (nearly) all the upcards, gives a big clue how bad the game is. (I vaguely remember with no upcard 14 or nearby is a cutoff.)
gordonm888
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
• Posts: 2818
April 4th, 2021 at 3:42:57 PM permalink
Quote: charliepatrick

Sorry before running the simulation I did a very quick infinite deck spreadsheet. I only looked at 2 thru 10 and it suggested
2: Hit 15
3-6: Hit 14
7: Hit 15
8-9: Hit 16
10: Hit 15
I also assumed you hit soft totals as normal. However as I hadn't put much thought or indeed checked my results, I didn't want to imply that these are necessarily correct, but hopefully close enough to get an idea of whether the House Edge is reasonable or horrendous.

If I had had more time I would have run similations by altering the hit cutoffs, but the one run gave a quick estimate (11.6%) of where the game was - i.e. avoid where possible.

I've come across this "14" cutoff on boats' Pontoon, where essentially you have to stand and pray the dealer busts. This low cutoff, and the fact that it applies to (nearly) all the upcards, gives a big clue how bad the game is. (I vaguely remember with no upcard 14 or nearby is a cutoff.)

I know the game is an absolute rip-off - I am just intellectually interested in game strategy theory.

I wonder what the strategy is vs Ace -given that Dealer does not peek and will hit soft and hard hands until you are beat.

I imagine the only issue with player's soft hands is whether you hit soft 18 and maybe soft 19 vs Ace.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.