What am I doing wrong
It sounds like you are having some bad luck, but I hate to say it, how are you betting? Flat betting or occasionally chasing losses and betting big? Pressing into winning streaks?Quote: JimmyB1474Hi there. I've been using basic stratagy for about 3 years now, but continuously lose, and lose fast. I spent months using Wizard of Odds strategies on free online games, to memorize everything. Yet, I go to the casino with $500, play a $10-$15 table (depending on availability) and rarely last more than 30 minutes until I'm broke. 6 decks, 8 decks, hand shuffled, machine shuffled, continuous shuffle. Makes no difference. I can understand bad luck once in a while, but it's getting ridiculous. Is my bankroll too low? Should I be walking away sooner and trying a different table? Please help. I love the game, but I can't seem to last long enough to enjoy it.
A key indicator is how often you get well ahead and then throw it away. I bet you do change your bet and increase wagering into winning or losing streaks. That's a recipe for frequent failure.
Back when I played Bricks and mortar (FOR AMUSEMENT), I'd typically have a predefined hour to spend playing and I'd play £5 mostly flat betting or occasionally 5, 10, 15 15,15 progressive. If I went bust, I left and seldom reached out more money.
I usually lasted at least the hour on £200 and would lose all about 1/3 of sessiions and walk out with >400 on about 1/3 and somewhere in between the other 1/3
Your risk of ruin goes through the roof if you increase bet size. Restrict max bet to <10% of the chips in front of you or min bet, and you'll have longer fun sessions..
Quote: JimmyB1474Hi there. I've been using basic stratagy for about 3 years now, but continuously lose, and lose fast. I spent months using Wizard of Odds strategies on free online games, to memorize everything. Yet, I go to the casino with $500, play a $10-$15 table (depending on availability) and rarely last more than 30 minutes until I'm broke. 6 decks, 8 decks, hand shuffled, machine shuffled, continuous shuffle. Makes no difference. I can understand bad luck once in a while, but it's getting ridiculous. Is my bankroll too low? Should I be walking away sooner and trying a different table? Please help. I love the game, but I can't seem to last long enough to enjoy it.
I think the problem is that you are playing Blackjack 😁
You should try Pai Gow Poker for the longest low volatility, low bankroll sessions of any casino game.
That said, you have just been unlucky. Even card counters who are playing with an edge encounter long losing streaks. It’s just part of the game of BJ.
You cannot win against a CSM or at 6:5 blackjack. If you are playing either, you are always going to be disappointed. Eight deck is very tough, but for the reason I mention above - the count will rarely be in your favor.
You mention a variety of games - keep track of your success, or lack of it, at a specific game - noting all of the variables. Stay away from those games that you don't do well at. Maybe it's a particular situation - too many distractions, too many ways to lose the count.
Don't go on tilt. If the count does get into the plus 3 or 4 range, don't stop counting or assume it's still high. Winning on a positive count usually means that high cards are coming out more than average so the count will tend to drop. Watch for that.
Start at the beginning of a shoe when you can know the count precisely.
Knowing hit-stand-split-double is really the easiest part, and should be reflexive. Knowing how much to bet - keeping count - is the tough part. The play of the cards should not distract you from that. If it does then you have not played, or practiced, enough. There are subtle differences in play for every variation of the game - H17 v S17, DAS v NDAS, number of decks.
Quote: fantomYou cannot win against a CSM or at 6:5 blackjack. If you are playing either, you are always going to be disappointed. Eight deck is very tough, but for the reason I mention above - the count will rarely be in your favor.
Hi Fantom, the OP never said he was counting, and at those stakes, I guess he wasn't
Interesting point about the 6:5 games. Playing them is a disaster in progress.
Not counting, CSM would be fine for recreational play. Obviously, he would tend to lose at or near to the house edge.
Quote: JimmyB1474Hi there. I've been using basic stratagy for about 3 years now, but continuously lose, and lose fast. I spent months using Wizard of Odds strategies on free online games, to memorize everything. Yet, I go to the casino with $500, play a $10-$15 table (depending on availability) and rarely last more than 30 minutes until I'm broke. 6 decks, 8 decks, hand shuffled, machine shuffled, continuous shuffle. Makes no difference. I can understand bad luck once in a while, but it's getting ridiculous. Is my bankroll too low? Should I be walking away sooner and trying a different table? Please help. I love the game, but I can't seem to last long enough to enjoy it.
Welcome to the forum! The only thing I will address is your ‘bankroll’ question. YOU have to tell us what your goals are, and what you can ‘afford’. If you asked.... ‘I’m playing BJ (give us exact rules) at a $10 table. I have learned basic strategy. I want to at least last X hours YY% of the time. Then we can answer.
I play - EV games like you do. Instead of using the word ‘bankroll’, I use the phrase ‘how much I’m willing to lose’. I use the word bankroll when I have a positive expectation. Maybe just my subtle idiosyncrasy.
Quote: JimmyB1474Thank you. Yes, I have kept track, reviewed play when I've gotten home. The only deviation is on doubling. I don't do it as often as suggested, because I'm losing so much, so fast.
If there is ever a time you are not doubling because you are 'afraid you are losing so fast' then you absolutely should not be playing at all! The advantages you have are being paid extra for BJ, splitting, and doubling! Playing without always doubling when basic strategy tells you to is a way to INCREASE the house edge.
So when starting a conversation, you should actually say, I DON'T play basic strategy.....
Which is ok, by the way, as it is your money, and you can decide how to give it away. Just don't be surprised when you do! I agree with the others, that you probably have been unlucky as well, leading to the speed at which you are losing.
That's why it might be a good idea for some people to play a mindless game like Baccarat or roulette. Even a toddler can play those game as well as any adult. There is no strategy to learn and you don't have to double down, split, stand or hit. Just played any number a pretty little chips on the pretty little spots.Quote: SOOPOOIf there is ever a time you are not doubling because you are 'afraid you are losing so fast' then you absolutely should not be playing at all! The advantages you have are being paid extra for BJ, splitting, and doubling! Playing without always doubling when basic strategy tells you to is a way to INCREASE the house edge.
So when starting a conversation, you should actually say, I DON'T play basic strategy.....
Which is ok, by the way, as it is your money, and you can decide how to give it away. Just don't be surprised when you do! I agree with the others, that you probably have been unlucky as well, leading to the speed at which you are losing.
Of course, you can always add in some bunk betting systems and methods to complicate things for yourself. Some find it entertaining to do so. Being that those games can get boarding real fast, I can see why people do come up with various betting systems.
Quote: JimmyB1474Hi there. I've been using basic stratagy for about 3 years now, but continuously lose, and lose fast. I spent months using Wizard of Odds strategies on free online games, to memorize everything. Yet, I go to the casino with $500, play a $10-$15 table (depending on availability) and rarely last more than 30 minutes until I'm broke. 6 decks, 8 decks, hand shuffled, machine shuffled, continuous shuffle. Makes no difference. I can understand bad luck once in a while, but it's getting ridiculous. Is my bankroll too low? Should I be walking away sooner and trying a different table? Please help. I love the game, but I can't seem to last long enough to enjoy it.
50 bets when flat betting seems perfectly sufficient to have reasonably long sessions most of the time. Your expected loss per hour is probably somewhere around $10-$15 depending on game speed and exact rules. I assume this is just variance. I had a similar absurdly negative experience with craps for a while. Works both ways though. I had a span of time when positive variance led to a string of BJ wins over short sessions. Both losing games long term assuming no AP angle but the ride can be lots of ups and downs along the way.
Quote: JimmyB1474Hi there. I've been using basic stratagy for about 3 years now, but continuously lose, and lose fast. I spent months using Wizard of Odds strategies on free online games, to memorize everything. Yet, I go to the casino with $500, play a $10-$15 table (depending on availability) and rarely last more than 30 minutes until I'm broke. 6 decks, 8 decks, hand shuffled, machine shuffled, continuous shuffle. Makes no difference. I can understand bad luck once in a while, but it's getting ridiculous. Is my bankroll too low? Should I be walking away sooner and trying a different table? Please help. I love the game, but I can't seem to last long enough to enjoy it.
JimmyB1474,
Wait... something doesn't add up. With a $500 bankroll and $10 flat bets, you'd have to lose 50 bets to go bust. How can you do that in only 30 minutes?
Dog Hand
Quote: DogHandJimmyB1474,
Wait... something doesn't add up. With a $500 bankroll and $10 flat bets, you'd have to lose 50 bets to go bust. How can you do that in only 30 minutes?
Dog Hand
Someone has to get all of MDawg's negative variance.
Quote: DogHandJimmyB1474,
Wait... something doesn't add up. With a $500 bankroll and $10 flat bets, you'd have to lose 50 bets to go bust. How can you do that in only 30 minutes?
Dog Hand
Are you suggesting this post is fiction?
So this is blackjack for entertainment purposes only. Under this circumstance, leaving the table ahead for any amount is a statistical aberration, and over time you will end up losing at the established house edge - which will vary - sometimes greatly - depending on the specific rules of the game you are playing.
"Achieving" the statistical result dictated by the true house edge will only occur after a lot of hands have been played. It's possible to play a few hands and come out further ahead - or behind - than should be the case. That's true with any game - craps, roulette, etc. Assuming that you are playing correct Basic Strategy, you've done all that you can to reduce the house edge as much as possible without counting. It's not that you are "lucky" or not, and over time your luck will change as your profit (or more honestly - loss) conforms to the house edge.
Whatever variance occurs in your results demonstrate quite conclusively that counting works. Again speaking generally, your results are examples of swings in the true count. You are flat betting, so you are not taking advantage of a high true count. You are not avoiding negative counts. When the time comes to up your bet and take advantage of the situation, you are not doing so. When it's a good idea to back away, you don't do that either.
In point of fact, you would probably do better playing in a CSM game where the true count, every single round, is as close to zero as it can be. The mathaholics here will be all over that piece of advice, and I would defer to their expertise about it. It might also be advisable to play at a 6:5 game with a lower minimum and just bet that smaller amount every hand. A bankroll will last longer betting $5 per hand than at $10 or $25. Remember - the game is structured so that you will lose, but ideally for the casino, at a rate that you tend not to notice.
Quote: DogHandJimmyB1474,
Wait... something doesn't add up. With a $500 bankroll and $10 flat bets, you'd have to lose 50 bets to go bust. How can you do that in only 30 minutes?
Dog Hand
Hmmm. Let's go with, "What's it like to play against a mechanic"? For $500 DH. wink.
Quote: SOOPOOIf there is ever a time you are not doubling because you are 'afraid you are losing so fast' then you absolutely should not be playing at all! The advantages you have are being paid extra for BJ, splitting, and doubling! Playing without always doubling when basic strategy tells you to is a way to INCREASE the house edge.
Player also has the advantage of being able to stand on H12-16, which is worth quite a bit versus dealer 2-6.
Quote: fantom
In point of fact, you would probably do better playing in a CSM game where the true count, every single round, is as close to zero as it can be. The mathaholics here will be all over that piece of advice, and I would defer to their expertise about it.
Hmmm, I think that is correct advice. With CSM's you also do not get the "cut card" effect
Quote: DogHandJimmyB1474,
Wait... something doesn't add up. With a $500 bankroll and $10 flat bets, you'd have to lose 50 bets to go bust. How can you do that in only 30 minutes?
Dog Hand
That's what I was thinking. Losing way to fast. I may have lost that fast 2 or 3 times in my 65 years but that's it.
Quote: joedolThat's what I was thinking. Losing way to fast. I may have lost that fast 2 or 3 times in my 65 years but that's it.
I don’t know who you are or who you were but you must not play blackjack at all imo
Just seems way to fast. Remember we're talking 30 minutes here.
Quote: joedolI'm 65 and have played all over the Country. Believe me, I've lost fast plenty of times, but not like this guy.
Just seems way to fast. Remember we're talking 30 minutes here.
i play on low limits specifically and ive seen someone lose 100k in that amount of time
he was betting max 5k(or 10K i forget the lower limit) plus i think 1k on the side bets 21+3 extreme at the sands bethlehem
ive also seen 10k on mini baccarat in a half hour same place
Quote: heatmapi play on low limits specifically and ive seen someone lose 100k in that amount of time
he was betting max 5k(or 10K i forget the lower limit) plus i think 1k on the side bets 21+3 extreme at the sands bethlehem
ive also seen 10k on mini baccarat in a half hour same place
Then you need to stay out of that place.
That is still not at the rate the OP loses at.
Quote: joedolThen you need to stay out of that place.
That is still not at the rate the OP loses at.
You should read the posts of zenking
Quote: heatmapYou should read the posts of zenking
I'll try and find it when I have more time. I assume I'll know it when I see it.
But it's going to take a lot to convince me that someone consistently loses $500 within 30 minutes playing 10-15 a hand using basic strategy.
Quote: JimmyB1474Thank you. Yes, I have kept track, reviewed play when I've gotten home. The only deviation is on doubling. I don't do it as often as suggested, because I'm losing so much, so fast.
Hi, and welcome to WoV
If you can answer the questions below, then the people on this forum may be able to help you more completely:
1. The specific rules for the game you are playing?
2. What basic strategy deviations you are making?
There are two examples below.
Note: for those examples, I used the following rules/parameters: 6-decks, BJ pay 3/2, dealer stands on 17, double after split, double any two card total, split once (to make two hands), and can not hit split aces
Eg 1 When doubling is the best play to make, you could be, "doubling only when the dealer is showing a 2-6"
If you are doing this, then you are costing yourself about 0.3% (this will make the house edge about 0.77%, instead of 0.46%).
Eg 2 When doubling is the best play to make, you could be, "doubling only when you get a hard 10 or 11"
If you are doing this, then you are costing yourself about 0.2% (this will make the house edge about 0.65%, instead of 0.46%).
Note: in the above examples, it is assumed that you are playing correct basic strategy for all other rounds of play.
----
Lastly, I understand what it feels like to have bad sessions (especially when it comes to doubling). Below is one of the bad sessions that happened to me, when I first started playing:
It involved a starting hand of 11, thirteen times in that one particular session.
I played correct basic strategy the first twelve times that I received that hand, and pulled an Ace every one of those times (so I was forced to stand on a 12, since I had doubled).
So, when the thirteenth 11 point starting hand came up for me, I decided to just hit and of course I pulled a picture card that time.
Quote: heatmapYou should read the posts of zenking
I found the D Day in Vegas thread if that's what you are talking about.
Bad luck, ya, but it doesn't really compare to what we are talking about here.
Quote: heatmapYou should read the posts of zenking
Not a member here anymore (thankfully) and would be a waste of his time reading those rants so should not bother.
I mean, threatened to shoot up some casinos at one low point of failure but is/was apparently welcome back here anytime... but I digress...
Quote: FTBNot a member here anymore (thankfully) and would be a waste of his time reading those rants so should not bother.
I mean, threatened to shoot up some casinos at one low point of failure but is/was apparently welcome back here anytime... but I digress...
the only reason i refer to him is because of where he played blackjack and mostly lost at
Quote: AZDuffman...you should try hitorstand.net to see just how good you are...
Flash player required. Sigh.
The most I’ve ever won at a blackjack table with $650 last year in Atlantic City. That was crazy luck! I was with a buddy mine that had been playing for a long time and I was just watching him. Then I joined the table. He kept busting my ass, LOL!
But, I’ve had bad streaks as well. At the most, I’ve bet $300. The least, $100.
In my hometown casino, they have table games ranging from $10 up to $25. I’m at the $10 tables. $15 tops.
I just found out recently about Progressive Blackjack and won $125!
Last month, there was a guy sitting right next to me that hit for the queen of hearts. $3000. He would’ve won $20,000 but the dealer had an Ace and a 8. Close!
So, I’m still learning myself.