gordonm888
gordonm888 
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
  • Threads: 38
  • Posts: 2565
May 8th, 2020 at 8:48:53 AM permalink
Quote: ssho88

Hi Gordon,

I used other software MGP's BJ CA, with removal of same eight small cards, the HE changed from -0.717% to -0.814%, MGP also generated the relevant basic strategy and EORs. However, it take much longer time and not practical for real time online betting.

See the results : https://ibb.co/gD7QVYZ

May be you can help to verify the accuracy of the results ?



On the BJstrat output you posted, you have not checked the box for DAS. I can't tell what the inputs are on the MGP calculator, but if you are setting the MGP calculator for DAS, that might explain the difference in the calculated HE's? Just guessing.
So many better men, a few of them friends, were dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things lived on, and so did I.
ssho88
ssho88
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 453
May 8th, 2020 at 9:41:49 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

On the BJstrat output you posted, you have not checked the box for DAS. I can't tell what the inputs are on the MGP calculator, but if you are setting the MGP calculator for DAS, that might explain the difference in the calculated HE's? Just guessing.



Both setting in MGP and bjstrat is NoDAS, it is just typo in my previous reply, MGP HE changed from -0.717% to -0.184% after removed eight "small" cards. Both bjstrat and MGP give same results. Pls check the attached image : https://ibb.co/gD7QVYZ


Edited, both setting in bjstrat and MGP is NoDAS, 8D, DOA, RS2, RSA2, S17, No Surrender, ENHC.
Last edited by: ssho88 on May 8, 2020
gordonm888
gordonm888 
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
  • Threads: 38
  • Posts: 2565
May 8th, 2020 at 12:36:04 PM permalink
Quote: ssho88

Both setting in MGP and bjstrat is NoDAS, it is just typo in my previous reply, MGP HE changed from -0.717% to -0.184% after removed eight "small" cards. Both bjstrat and MGP give same results. Pls check the attached image : https://ibb.co/gD7QVYZ


Edited, both setting in bjstrat and MGP is NoDAS, 8D, DOA, RS2, RSA2, S17, No Surrender, ENHC.



Thanks for info. So, now you are not seeing a difference between MGP and Bjstrat -so there is no discrepancy to explain, correct?

Does BJstrat give you the capability you wanted for a very quick calculator for depleted shoe HE?

I think the BJstrat calculator is a marvelous tool with many outputs not available on the WOO calculator. I see that the MGP calculator has even better (more comprehensive) output displays. How long does MGP take to run a HE case? Any other downside to the MGP calculator?
So many better men, a few of them friends, were dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things lived on, and so did I.
ksdjdj
ksdjdj
Joined: Oct 20, 2013
  • Threads: 78
  • Posts: 894
May 8th, 2020 at 2:08:50 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

(snip) Regarding "expected gain": It seems this Danish calculator does not allow double on soft hands? Is this correct?


Yes thanks, it looks like you are correct, but even when I plug "no soft doubles" into MGP it still gives me a different EV figure. With MGP it is -0.8029...% and bewersdorff it is -0.883%, I don't know why.

Quote:

(snip) How long does MGP take to run a HE case? Any other downside to the MGP calculator?


I can't answer for the OP, but on my pc MGP runs slow for things like that.
Another downside for me is when I try to use the "realtime analysis", it gives a significantly different EV*** figure.

***: I get +0.0280819 as the "EV of hand" when I use MGP's "realtime analysis", but I get the same figure as the OP by going to "shoe" and then changing the "forced shoe" to the same as what is in the OP's upload (I am taking out the same 8 cards when using "realtime analysis" ).
ssho88
ssho88
Joined: Oct 16, 2011
  • Threads: 41
  • Posts: 453
May 8th, 2020 at 4:21:47 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Quote: ssho88

Both setting in MGP and bjstrat is NoDAS, it is just typo in my previous reply, MGP HE changed from -0.717% to -0.184% after removed eight "small" cards. Both bjstrat and MGP give same results. Pls check the attached image : https://ibb.co/gD7QVYZ


Edited, both setting in bjstrat and MGP is NoDAS, 8D, DOA, RS2, RSA2, S17, No Surrender, ENHC.



Thanks for info. So, now you are not seeing a difference between MGP and Bjstrat -so there is no discrepancy to explain, correct?



No discrepancy to explain.


Quote: gordonm888

Does BJstrat give you the capability you wanted for a very quick calculator for depleted shoe HE?



BJstrat can calculate the HE for depleted shoe very quickly and can meet my requirement( for online betting)


Quote: gordonm888

I think the BJstrat calculator is a marvelous tool with many outputs not available on the WOO calculator. I see that the MGP calculator has even better (more comprehensive) output displays. How long does MGP take to run a HE case? Any other downside to the MGP calculator?



MGP take about 16 seconds to calculate depleted shoe HE and give very comprehensive output.
gordonm888
gordonm888 
Joined: Feb 18, 2015
  • Threads: 38
  • Posts: 2565
Thanks for this post from:
ksdjdj
May 8th, 2020 at 4:24:08 PM permalink
Quote: ksdjdj

Yes thanks, it looks like you are correct, but even when I plug "no soft doubles" into MGP it still gives me a different EV figure. With MGP it is -0.8029...% and bewersdorff it is -0.883%, I don't know why.


I can't answer for the OP, but on my pc MGP runs slow for things like that.
Another downside for me is when I try to use the "realtime analysis", it gives a significantly different EV*** figure.

***: I get +0.0280819 as the "EV of hand" when I use MGP's "realtime analysis", but I get the same figure as the OP by going to "shoe" and then changing the "forced shoe" to the same as what is in the OP's upload (I am taking out the same 8 cards when using "realtime analysis" ).



Clearly, the "realtime analysis" is too approximate to be relied on. That's a terrible discrepancy, especially for the removal of only eight cards.

Edit: When I do a simple calculation for the HE (with those eight cards removed) by summing the 8 deck EOR coefficients for those 8 cards, I get that the HE changes from -0.00717 to approximately -0.001998 -which is in the ballpark of the value of HE =-.001884 provided by Bjstrat and the full MGP calculator.

So, the value of HE = +0.0280819 given by the MGP's "realtime analysis" algorithms is really wacky and most likely involves a programming error.

BTW, my calculation just shows how bad or good the standard "summing the EOR" methodology is: with only 8 small cards removed the error in HE is already 0.11%. When 80 or 100 cards are removed, the errors can become significantly larger.
Last edited by: gordonm888 on May 8, 2020
So many better men, a few of them friends, were dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things lived on, and so did I.
ksdjdj
ksdjdj
Joined: Oct 20, 2013
  • Threads: 78
  • Posts: 894
May 8th, 2020 at 5:28:28 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Clearly, the "realtime analysis" is too approximate to be relied on. That's a terrible discrepancy, especially for the removal of only eight cards.

Edit: When I do a simple calculation for the HE (with those eight cards removed) by summing the 8 deck EOR coefficients for those 8 cards, I get that the HE changes from -0.00717 to approximately -0.001998 -which is in the ballpark of the value of HE =-.001884 provided by Bjstrat and the full MGP calculator.

So, the value of HE = +0.0280819 given by the MGP's "realtime analysis" algorithms is really wacky and most likely involves a programming error.

BTW, my calculation just shows how bad or good the standard "summing the EOR" methodology is: with only 8 small cards removed the error in HE is already 0.11%. When 80 or 100 cards are removed, the errors can become significantly larger.


I tried to guess what the error with the "realtime analysis" could be by going from 8 deck to single deck (all other rules the same as OP) and then removing the same 8 cards, but it just spat out an EV of between 0.15 and 0.16 for "realtime".

That's good that your calculation is close to the one on the bjstrat site and the full MGP calculator.

  • Jump to: