jek187
jek187
Joined: Jun 28, 2017
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September 11th, 2018 at 10:09:28 PM permalink
Does anyone know of any blackjack software that will spit out a basic strategy taking into account player points? I have a VBJ machine I play to qualify for mailers. There are point multipliers that sometimes range from 1.6%-2.4% on it. I figure when those multipliers are in effect, it could be correct to be more liberal with doubling and splitting (and, as an added bonus, I'll get my points for the mailer qualification quicker). In case it matters, the game's rules are:

Single deck
BJ pays 1:1
Shuffle every hand
Double 10/11 only
No DAS
Dealer hits S17
You *can* resplit to 4 hands
No HSA
6-card Charlie (figure this one may not be in a lot of software)

I realize my gains here are probably miniscule taking this into account, but I'm nothing if not powerless to stop my OCD, and I'd like to get every last fractional point of EV I can.
billryan
billryan
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September 11th, 2018 at 10:59:02 PM permalink
On many of these machines, dealer can only draw six cards. If his six cards are under 17, player automatically wins, even with a lesser hand.
I've no idea how to reckon what that play is worth, as it's fairly infrequent.
jek187
jek187
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September 12th, 2018 at 8:11:07 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

On many of these machines, dealer can only draw six cards. If his six cards are under 17, player automatically wins, even with a lesser hand.
I've no idea how to reckon what that play is worth, as it's fairly infrequent.



In this particular case, even though the 6-card Charlie rule is in effect, it only counts for the player. I've seen the dealer go to at least 7 cards on occasion. My only other experience with VBJ 6-card Charlie is that the dealer automatically stands at 6 cards. Rarely is that at a 16 or lower, so the effect is basically negligible imo.
gordonm888
gordonm888
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September 12th, 2018 at 8:31:58 AM permalink
Do you have a sense of what the value of your points are to you? Such as 10% of the money you lose?

If the HE is 1.0% (for example), then earning points will have a total value of 0.1% if points are worth 10% of your losses.. When you have a points multiplier of about 2% then it has a value, in this example, of 0.001 x 0.02 =0.00002 or 0.002%. So when considering whether to double or not, or whether to split or not, it is like adding an extra 0.002% of EV to the double /split options. Especially since the rules are NO DAS, D10,11 only, I don't think that 0.002% is going to change the optimum decision for any player situation involving double or split.

The 6 card charlie rule will change player strategy for some situations in which you have a 5-card hand that adds up to 17 or less (you will hit rather than stand.) You may also hit some 4-card 12s that you would otherwise stand on. You can find the correct strategy for playing 6 card Charlie on WOO.

By the way, these BJ rules on your VBJ game really suck. This is a terrible game. If you still feel as if you need Basic Strategy for your rules, let us know. If I have the time, I'll look at the issue further.
Sometimes, people are just a bottomless mystery. And, after all, this is just a sh*tty little forum in the sun-less backwaters of the online world.
jek187
jek187
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September 12th, 2018 at 8:53:07 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Do you have a sense of what the value of your points are to you? Such as 10% of the money you lose?

If the HE is 0.8% (for example), then earning points will have a total value of 0.08% if points are worth 10% of your losses.. When you have a points multiplier of about 2% then it has a value, in this example, of 0.008 x 0.02 =0.00016 or 0.016%. So when considering whether to double or not, or whether to split or not, it is like adding an extra 0.016% of EV to the double /split options. Especially since the rules are NO DAS, I don't think that 0.016% is going to change the optimum decision for any player situation involving double or split.

The 6 card charlie rule will change player strategy for some situations in which you have a 5-card hand that adds up to 17 or less (you will hit rather than stand.) You may also hit some 4-card 12s that you would otherwise stand on. You can find the correct strategy for playing 6 card Charlie on WOO.

If you still feel as if you need Basic Strategy for your rules, let us know. If I have the time, I'll look at the issue further.



The worth of the points is actually not related at all to the losses on the machine. The points equate to .4% of handle cashback (a $10 bet gets $.04 worth of points, so if you bet $10 on a hand of BJ, and double down, you get $.08 in cashback). However, the machine is eligible for point multipliers, which range from 4X-6X (1.6% to 2.4% cashback). So we're talking about potentially adding up to 2.4% to double/split decisions. My gut tells me that's enough for some strategy changes, but I'm not sure how far to take it.

I'm good on the basic strategy for this game without accounting for the points (BeatingBonuses' calculator seems to handle the 6CC rule the best, after comparing it to WoO and Wong's BJ book). I only mentioned the 6CC rule because I would imagine that would be something missing in a lot of software, and it can have an effect, such as whether to double a 10 vs. a 10 (as doubling also forfeits the chance of a 6CC).
gordonm888
gordonm888
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Thanks for this post from:
jek187
September 12th, 2018 at 11:00:04 AM permalink
Quote: jek187

The worth of the points is actually not related at all to the losses on the machine. The points equate to .4% of handle cashback (a $10 bet gets $.04 worth of points, so if you bet $10 on a hand of BJ, and double down, you get $.08 in cashback). However, the machine is eligible for point multipliers, which range from 4X-6X (1.6% to 2.4% cashback). So we're talking about potentially adding up to 2.4% to double/split decisions. My gut tells me that's enough for some strategy changes, but I'm not sure how far to take it.



Given your explanation, when you have a bonus multiplier 4x-6x, you should definitely

- Double any 10v10
- Split a 2-2 vs 3
- Split a 3-3 vs 3 (not going to happen very often)

With a 6x multiplier, you should also double 5-5 vs A and 6-4 vs A

Indeed even without the multipliers, if you get 0.4% back on every bet you should Split a 2-2 vs 3. Here are the EVs without considering points for 2-2 vs 3:
Hit = - 6.411%
Split = -6.678%
Sometimes, people are just a bottomless mystery. And, after all, this is just a sh*tty little forum in the sun-less backwaters of the online world.
jek187
jek187
Joined: Jun 28, 2017
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September 12th, 2018 at 11:32:03 AM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Given your explanation, when you have a bonus multiplier 4x-6x, you should definitely

- Double any 10v10
- Split a 2-2 vs 3
- Split a 3-3 vs 3 (not going to happen very often)

With a 6x multiplier, you should also double 5-5 vs A and 6-4 vs A

Indeed even without the multipliers, if you get 0.4% back on every bet you should Split a 2-2 vs 3. Here are the EVs without considering points for 2-2 vs 3:
Hit = - 6.411%
Split = -6.678%



That's exactly what I'm looking for. How did you generate those numbers? I'd love to take a look at them myself. I have no problem going through and doing the math from there. Thanks!
heatmap
heatmap
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September 12th, 2018 at 2:49:46 PM permalink
Quote: liliannjock2020

HIGH QUALITY UNDETECTABLE COUNTERFEIT BANKNOTES FOR SALE



i suspect for not much longer
gordonm888
gordonm888
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Thanks for this post from:
jek187
September 12th, 2018 at 3:02:56 PM permalink
Quote: jek187

That's exactly what I'm looking for. How did you generate those numbers? I'd love to take a look at them myself. I have no problem going through and doing the math from there. Thanks!



Here are what I regard as the top two blackjack hand calculators on the web. You must first specify all your BJ rules but after that you can find the EV of all options for all possible player/dealer upcard combinations.

WOO calculator
bjstrat calculator (note to mods: J.B. has previously posted links to this calculator in posts on this forum.)

Both can calculate any player hand (including more than 2 cards) for all of your rules with the exception of 6 card charlie -and can also remove cards from the initial deck/shoe. The bjstrat calculator has the advantage that it will show on the same screen the EVs for all the options for a given player hand, say 2-2 pair, against all the possible dealer upcards (2-A). The WOO calculator displays more digits of accuracy than Bjstrat and has some better flexibilities in its user input interface. I have never experienced a problem with the correctness of either calculator, and I use them both extensively and joyously (as well as private calculators that I write for my own use.)

Enjoy! If we should ever meet in person, I will assume that you owe me a beer for this, lol!
Sometimes, people are just a bottomless mystery. And, after all, this is just a sh*tty little forum in the sun-less backwaters of the online world.
jek187
jek187
Joined: Jun 28, 2017
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September 12th, 2018 at 8:03:25 PM permalink
Quote: gordonm888

Enjoy! If we should ever meet in person, I will assume that you owe me a beer for this, lol!



A beer? Absolutely! Potentially more than one.

And, you know, if you ever wanted to put your calculator writing skills to use to figure in the 6CC, I'd be happy to PayPal you the equivalent of many beers. ;)

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