5 card Charlie...dealer error?

I was recently on a cruise ship playing blackjack. Every night they had a 'special' on the tables. This particular night was 5 card Charlie night. The rules were simple. If you draw 5 cards without busting, you win even money.
A friend of mine was on 1st base and was looking at a 4 & 2. The dealer was showing a ten. She decided to hit. Off came an ace. Now she has 7 or 17. She hit again and received a 4. Now her total is 11 or 21. She hesitated for a moment and I screamed from across the table "HIT! You can't lose!". The dealer chimed in and said she has 21 and moved to the next player. I told him to wait a minute, she has 11 and wants another card. He said that it didn't matter, she already has 21. I said it's a soft 21, give her a card. If you draw and make 21, it's a push. If she hits, it doesn't matter what card comes off because she can't bust. She'll have a 5 card Charlie and automaticaly win. He ignored me and moved on.
In the end it didn't matter because the dealer busted and she got paid. But that is not the point. I think she should have been able to take a hit on a soft 21. I told the casino manager about the situation. He didn't have an answer for me. He told me he would email his boss for some clarification. I approached him the following evening but he didn't have an answer.
Was the dealer right?

You were right on. I just love hitting a soft total to make a charlie and prevent the dealer from getting a push!

I would have called the floorperson.

But you gotta remember, cruise casinos are notorious for making up, and altering, the rules as they go along.

The Charlie should have been allowed, but unless you are getting paid before the hand continues (ie: no push) it would not matter.

This was a cruise ship casino, so you weren't exactly dealing with the best and the brightest. Of course, it was well within the rules to hit a four card soft 21 (or a four card soft anything else) to ensure a win.

Your friend needs to learn to listen to you a little better. If she had requested the hit herself (i.e., had listened to you), the dealer could hardly have refused. As it was, the dealer felt safe to ignore YOU. (It's possible that either your friend, the dealer, or both didn't realize that 21 is NOT a guaranteed winner.)

No doubt this game was as crappy as most cruise ship games are, but the 5 card charlie rule sounds pretty powerful to me. Obviously, you would alter basic strategy DRAMATICALLY to optimize this rule. I don't know what the ultimate benefit would be, but certain plays suggest themselves, like always hitting a four card 15 or lower.

Quote: vernfritz

Was the dealer right?

No. In Atlantic City there is a rule you must stand on a blackjack, but I've never heard of a rule where you can't hit a 21-point hand. If the dealer made 21, and pushed the hand, I would have been furious.

May I ask which cruise ship this was? The 5-card Charlie rule is very powerful in the player's favor.

It was on Regent Seven Seas. I was very excited to hear about the 5 card Charlie special that night. Thanks to the Wizard, I knew that it wasn't going to hurt any of us that night. They used a 6 deck shoe, dealer stands on any 17. BJ's paid 3:2.

Wow, it sounds like the table would have a pretty low house edge with those rules. I agree, the player should've been able to take another card.

Quote: mkl654321

No doubt this game was as crappy as most cruise ship games are, but the 5 card charlie rule sounds pretty powerful to me. Obviously, you would alter basic strategy DRAMATICALLY to optimize this rule. I don't know what the ultimate benefit would be, but certain plays suggest themselves, like always hitting a four card 15 or lower.

Here's the correct modified strategy when Charlies are in play (some changes to BS are made when you're one or two cards away from an automatic winner):
https://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/strategy/charlie.html

I was thinking about the ramifications with card counting when a Charlie rule is in play. A deck or shoe that is rich in "low-low" cards (Aces which are low for this purpose, 2s, and 3s) would produce more Charlies. (The "high-low" cards, such as 5s and 6s, would still be the worst cards for the player, because of the power they have on stiff dealer hands.) Anyone have any thoughts on how you'd count cards with this kind of rule/the odds with the rule? (This is mostly hypothetical since I probably won't be using it in practice anytime soon.)

Quote: Kellynbnf

I was thinking about the ramifications with card counting when a Charlie rule is in play. A deck or shoe that is rich in "low-low" cards (Aces which are low for this purpose, 2s, and 3s) would produce more Charlies. (The "high-low" cards, such as 5s and 6s, would still be the worst cards for the player, because of the power they have on stiff dealer hands.) Anyone have any thoughts on how you'd count cards with this kind of rule/the odds with the rule? (This is mostly hypothetical since I probably won't be using it in practice anytime soon.)

The trouble is, the very situation that makes a Charlie more likely also makes winning the initial bet itself less likely. Obviously, Basic Strategy modifications can help with this, and just as obviously, at some point, a plethora of small cards begins to help the player, not hurt him (imagine if the deck was all Aces, 2s, and 3s). At extreme low counts and beyond, the player disadvantage starts to lessen, but that is a rare situation. So it would be very unusual if the increased likelihood of a Charlie was enough to offset the decreased likelihood of blackjacks, double downs, and the decreased likelihood of the dealer busting.

Spanish 21 has good "Charlie" rules. Nevertheless, the odds still favor a 10-rich deck.

Hi,

I can find the house edge effect(+1.46%) and lt's strategy(https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/automatic-winner-charlie-rule/) for 5 card charlie( 5 cards unbusted hand autowin 1 unit !)


However, what is the strategy for 5 card charlie autowin 0.5 UNIT ? You have mentioned that the house edge effect is +0.77%, but what is the correct strategy for 5 card charlie autowin 0.5 unit ?

James

Quote: ssho88

Hi,

I can find the house edge effect(+1.46%) and lt's strategy(https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/automatic-winner-charlie-rule/) for 5 card charlie( 5 cards unbusted hand autowin 1 unit !)


However, what is the strategy for 5 card charlie autowin 0.5 UNIT ? You have mentioned that the house edge effect is +0.77%, but what is the correct strategy for 5 card charlie autowin 0.5 unit ?

James

ssho88,

The answer to your question can be found on Tables 60-69 of Stanford Wing's classic Professional Blackjack.

Hope this helps!

Dog Hand