illustrious 18 for single/double deck

I recently started to learn counting and want to know whether the illustrious 18 chart I see in the internet, good for single/double deck games? Also will you use the running count or true count for these decisions for single/double deck games? Thanks in advance for your suggestions and help.

I think the indices are based on true count only. They should work ok on a double deck because they are more similar to a shoe game , but I think single deck it might not work as well.

thanks for the reply. I thought the betting ramp for double deck is based on RC and not TC. Read that on the 888casino strategy guide. But you say the deviation for double deck has to be with TC?

Please take this in the spirit it is intended. You, my friend have a way to go before you need worry about the Illustrious 18. As Ray Davies might say- You are trying to fly while you can even swim.

English is not my first language. Its actually my 4th language. I cannot understand what you trying to say to me.

I will try to explain what I think billryan means.

Quote: billryan

Please take this in the spirit it is intended.

The advice given is critical, but it is intended to be helpful.

Quote: billryan

You, my friend have a way to go before you need worry about the Illustrious 18.

You should not be concerned about using the Illustrious 18 at this time.

Quote: billryan

As Ray Davies might say- You are trying to fly while you can even swim.

You should focus on learning, practicing, and mastering card counting skills for a single/double deck game before trying to apply refined strategies such as the Illusrious 18 exceptions. (You are trying to run before you can walk.)
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My apologies to billryan if my explanation does not reflect his intent.

If you have learned 3 languages in addition to your first, especially English, I think you will quickly master single/double deck blackjack. Good luck!

fearlessdragon, the TC is what playing decisions are made from. This is a very, very basic and fundamental concept with counting cards in blackjack. You should read, and then re-read these articles:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack-3/

Can anyone provide a reference to single deck BJ and how to change player decisions based on deck composition for the OP? I agree that the so-called indices provide only a very small increment of advantage in 6-deck games but single-deck BJ is a different situation.

When I played single deck BJ in Vegas back in the day, I used to do a side-count on 5s and on 6s because I had calculated (using an HP-35 calculator) that the absence of 5s and 6's is so important (sometimes in different ways) to the 16v10 and 15v10 decisions. I also maintained awareness of 2s, 3s (for close decisions on soft 18) and did a side count on Aces for various reasons - remember that in single deck you don't get many hands dealt (often only two hands per shuffle with other players at the table), so performing multiple side counts is more practical.

At single deck games, I would always try to sit at third base to see as many cards as possible before making decisions -when you see your hand and know the decision you have to make, you can at least keep track of the cards that are critical to your decision that are visible in the other player's hands and factor that into any close decisions.

Ken Uston bragged that he could beat a single deck BJ game without varying bet size. Not sure if that was actually possible, but altering your Hit/Stand/Double decisions based on cards you see is not a trivial matter.

If OP has single-deck games in his country, then I wonder if there is something that someone can point him to that is more helpful than indices based on counts that lump 5s and 6s in with 3s,4s and sometimes 2s.

Quote: gordonm888

Can anyone provide a reference to single deck BJ and how to change player decisions based on deck composition for the OP? I agree that the so-called indices provide only a very small increment of advantage in 6-deck games but single-deck BJ is a different situation.

When I played single deck BJ in Vegas back in the day, I used to do a side-count on 5s and on 6s because I had calculated (using an HP-35 calculator) that the absence of 5s and 6's is so important (sometimes in different ways) to the 16v10 and 15v10 decisions. I also maintained awareness of 2s, 3s (for close decisions on soft 18) and did a side count on Aces for various reasons - remember that in single deck you don't get many hands dealt (often only two hands per shuffle with other players at the table), so performing multiple side counts is more practical.

At single deck games, I would always try to sit at third base to see as many cards as possible before making decisions -when you see your hand and know the decision you have to make, you can at least keep track of the cards that are critical to your decision that are visible in the other player's hands and factor that into any close decisions.

Ken Uston bragged that he could beat a single deck BJ game without varying bet size. Not sure if that was actually possible, but altering your Hit/Stand/Double decisions based on cards you see is not a trivial matter.

If OP has single-deck games in his country, then I wonder if there is something that someone can point him to that is more helpful than indices based on counts that lump 5s and 6s in with 3s,4s and sometimes 2s.

This is a question for Don S. or Norm.

I believe what Uston referenced was depth charging. I'm probably wrong though.

Quote: gordonm888

Can anyone provide a reference to single deck BJ and how to change player decisions based on deck composition for the OP?...

A few reasons why I didn't go to the documents I have saved:

1) The OP clearly has a lot more to worry about at this time, such as attaining a winning game. I'd rather not supply him with the little boxes and have him ignore the rest of the thread/articles/etc. It's more/less for his own good that I'm not just giving him what he wants. Some may agree, others may not, but I don't want to share them so I won't.

2) Yes, there are differences, but SD/DD deviations are pretty similar to the 6D I18. If the OP simply learned the I18, that would be "close enough" to get the majority of the deviation value.

3) No serious counter will ever last for a serious amount of time on SD/DD. Granted there are "one off" games people find in their little towns with no heat/etc, but even those good fortunes ultimately always come to an end. Inevitably if the OP wants to play with any level of seriousness (not even pro) he'll have to learn the 6D deviations anyways...

4) I personally believe every counter should learn 6D games/count/strategy first as it'll make them more versatile moving forward. SD and DD, if you want to take them seriously, in my opinion require more specialization, such as HI-OPT II, ace side count, etc, etc.

Having said all that, if the OP appeared to already be a competent counter not needing to learn more to have a winning game, that's when I'd be more of a fan of just dumping the information requested. Given where I would assess the OP is at in his journey (especially since the info he's asking for can be found in 'most' creditable counting books) and taking all of the above in to account, and having taught dozens of players, I've seen the pit falls of going the wrong direction at the wrong time and how it can confuse or set a player who's struggling a ways.

Also I don't know if others would agree, but I would steer away from 888casino.com. Try to get your info from WoV(here) and WoO. Some other sites are helpful, I personally liked blackjackincolor.com. I wonder if my opinion on 888casino is shared

Quote: tyler498

Also I don't know if others would agree, but I would steer away from 888casino.com. Try to get your info from WoV(here) and WoO. Some other sites are helpful, I personally liked blackjackincolor.com. I wonder if my opinion on 888casino is shared

Err... 888casino's AP info has already confused me. Sounds like they are giving the middle finger to land casinos by sharing that. How would they feel if land casinos all have a sign that says something like "follow this guide to beat online casino bonuses"

Quote: Romes

fearlessdragon, the TC is what playing decisions are made from. This is a very, very basic and fundamental concept with counting cards in blackjack. You should read, and then re-read these articles:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack-3/

I would like to thank Romes on a very detailed insight regarding card counting. I read it thrice already. So just want to confirm it again with you. I play a double deck with 75% penetration ( yes, some dealers do the cut very deep and its double deck shoe game, which is easier to count.). Running count is 2 and 40% of shoe is remaining. So my TC will be 2/0.4 = 5. I should bet and deviate based on TC 5 and not RC 2 right?

Quote: fearlessdragon

...Running count is 2 and 40% of shoe is remaining. So my TC will be 2/0.4 = 5. I should bet and deviate based on TC 5 and not RC 2 right?

Yes, that is correct =).

Quote: fearlessdragon

I would like to thank Romes on a very detailed insight regarding card counting. I read it thrice already. So just want to confirm it again with you. I play a double deck with 75% penetration ( yes, some dealers do the cut very deep and its double deck shoe game, which is easier to count.). Running count is 2 and 40% of shoe is remaining. So my TC will be 2/0.4 = 5. I should bet and deviate based on TC 5 and not RC 2 right?

Correct me if I am wrong (I'm no counter), but 40% of a double deck shoe is 0.8 decks. RC 2 / 0.8 Decks Remaining = 2.5 TC.

Quote: Joeman

Correct me if I am wrong (I'm no counter), but 40% of a double deck shoe is 0.8 decks. RC 2 / 0.8 Decks Remaining = 2.5 TC.

Also correct. I should check the math =(. I was just happy he was using the TC. 40% of 2 decks .8 decks, as Joeman pointed out.

For the most part decisions in single and double deck are pretty close to decisions in multi deck. The reason why single deck basic strategy is so different is because of wild variations in the true count based on the initial starting cards. For example 5,3 v 6 represents a true count of +3 and hence a basic strategy double. But there are some exceptions.

For example 7,7 v T is a basic strategy surrender or stay in single deck because removing two sevens greatly impacts the hit / stay decision. Likewise 7,7 v 8 is a split in double deck whereas it's a hit in multi deck, again because removing two sevens makes hitting less attractive and hence splitting more attractive.

You use the true count for your decisions in single and double deck. Even in single deck, but here you divide by fractions and hence end up multiplying your original total. For example with .25 of a deck dealt you would divide by .75 so that a running count of +3 means a true count of +4.