2 deck BJ

Found this 2 deck blackjack game but they only deal out one deck then reshuffle. Bets are $25 min to $300 max. Is it even worth it to count?

edit for more info: It's not single deck. It's double deck but they only deal out 1 deck. So penetration is one deck. double on any two cards but aces only one card allowed(no resplit of aces), Sur allowed, Hit soft 17.

Quote: alphastorm

Found this 2 deck blackjack game but they only deal out one deck then reshuffle. Bets are $25 min to $300 max. Is it even worth it to count?

I will venture a guess that you're actually playing single deck BJ, and from what I've read, single deck should be more favorable than DD, and easier to count. But there are some missing considerations to evaluate the "DD BJ" game you found:

- Any estimate on PEN?
- Is it DAS or nDAS?
- SURR?
- RSA?
- Any idea of the HEAT?
- Is it S17 or H17?

If you can provide these conditions, I'll try another evaluation. I'm sure the more experienced card-counters will jump on it right away.

The OP already told us the Penetration which is one deck dealt out (50%) for this Double Deck game. What are the exact rules anyways? That way you can know the House Edge and how to correctly play against it. Does dealer Hit or must they Stand on soft 17? May we double on any two cards or only allowed to double on say 9,10, and 11. Can we Surrender our hand?

DD, H17, DAS, DA2, heads up, no RSA, no LS -- using Zen count, it's worth $72/hour, spreading 1x25 to 1x300. Spreading 2x25 to 2x300 it's $160/hour. Assumes 100 HPH. N0 is 22k and SCORE is thus 45.

If I could do 2x25 to 2x300, and could play it all day, I'd play it all day. Heads up, of course.

Quote: LostWages

I will venture a guess that you're actually playing single deck BJ, and from what I've read, single deck should be more favorable than DD, and easier to count. But there are some missing considerations to evaluate the "DD BJ" game you found:

- Any estimate on PEN?
- Is it DAS or nDAS?
- SURR?
- RSA?
- Any idea of the HEAT?
- Is it S17 or H17?

If you can provide these conditions, I'll try another evaluation. I'm sure the more experienced card-counters will jump on it right away.

It's not single deck. It's double deck but they only deal out 1 deck. So penetration is one deck. double on any two cards but aces only one card allowed(no resplit of aces), Sur allowed, Hit soft 17.

Okay rules (under .5%) not so good penetration, but most importantly is how is the heat? This is going to be your #1 issues. That's an 'okay' game to count, but you'd need to spread at least $25-$200 (the "friendly" 1-8), but most DD games are usually watched fairly closely and followed up with heat. Heat is by far the #1 playing condition I look for. Even with 50% PEN, I'd play the hell out of this game if it had zero heat.

I'm a new counter. I've been backed off once at a different casino. I'm pretty sure it's being watched closely as that's the only non asm bj at the casino. I'm not even sure what to look for.

Quote: alphastorm

I'm a new counter. I've been backed off once at a different casino. I'm pretty sure it's being watched closely as that's the only non asm bj at the casino. I'm not even sure what to look for.

How new are you? Being backed off doesn't always mean you have a winning game, just that the casino noticed you changing your bets. When you say you're not sure what to look for, do you mean in a game to count?

1) Heat
2) PEN
3) Rules (das, da2, surrender, h17/s17/, etc, etc, etc)
4) Limits (rare but some casinos have weird limits)

*this is just for basic card counting

I talk about how to find decent games/rules/etc in my 3 articles on this site.

Quote: Romes

How new are you? Being backed off doesn't always mean you have a winning game, just that the casino noticed you changing your bets. When you say you're not sure what to look for, do you mean in a game to count?

1) Heat
2) PEN
3) Rules (das, da2, surrender, h17/s17/, etc, etc, etc)
4) Limits (rare but some casinos have weird limits)

*this is just for basic card counting

I talk about how to find decent games/rules/etc in my 3 articles on this site.

#1 has to be the hardest to gauge. Especially for newbies. There's the saying, "there is no heat, until there's heat!"

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

#1 has to be the hardest to gauge. Especially for newbies. There's the saying, "there is no heat, until there's heat!"

Agreed entirely. Playing seems to be the best way (other than word of mouth) to gauge the heat level of a shop. That's why some pro's just blast away everywhere, because when they come across the places that don't care, then it's a camp fest.

Quote: Romes

How new are you? Being backed off doesn't always mean you have a winning game, just that the casino noticed you changing your bets. When you say you're not sure what to look for, do you mean in a game to count?

1) Heat
2) PEN
3) Rules (das, da2, surrender, h17/s17/, etc, etc, etc)
4) Limits (rare but some casinos have weird limits)

*this is just for basic card counting

I talk about how to find decent games/rules/etc in my 3 articles on this site.

6 months new. My spread was 1 $10 to 3 $100 bets. It lasted a good 20 minutes before they told me they couldn't take my action. I am not sure how to look for heat.

Quote: alphastorm

6 months new. My spread was 1 $10 to 3 $100 bets. It lasted a good 20 minutes before they told me they couldn't take my action. I am not sure how to look for heat.

Well welcome to the counting scene =). What count do you use? Do you mind sharing your spread and bankroll? Are you saying your spread is 1x$10 to 3x$100???

Well, you'll get a lot of experience quick about heat with that spread. Almost no place will let you get away with that for very long.

It OBVIOUSLY differs pending each casino and their heat, but in GENERAL safe, but effective, spreads for different levels are:
1x$5 to 2x$40, or $5-$60

1x$10 to 2x$90, or $10-$140 ...(the $90 bets usually avoid the "checks play" call at a lot of places)

1x$25 to 2x$200, or $25-$300

I think you'd benefit a lot from taking some time to read (and reread) through my articles here in the WoV articles section:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack-3/

I just use a hi lo count as recommended by this forum. I bring $1000 to $1500 to the table. As for bankroll, I can afford to lose $5000. Thanks for the tips and I will give your articles a read.

Romes,

Speaking of spreads, just curious. I have a friend who spreads from 1 hand at 1k to 3 hands at 5k, plays for hours on end, gets the vip treatment from everybody. Seems like his increments are similar in scope to what you say would bring fast heat at a lower limit table, but he claims he's never had any heat. Do you think it's the dollar value that keeps him unbothered, or do you think they evaluate his play without telling him and have decided he doesn't count, or is there some other factor? Thanks.

Quote: alphastorm

I just use a hi lo count as recommended by this forum. I bring $1000 to $1500 to the table. As for bankroll, I can afford to lose $5000. Thanks for the tips and I will give your articles a read.

To be honest alpha, with a $5k bankroll and a max bet of 2x$100 even, you'd be under bankrolled =/. You're taking an ok session bankroll (usually you want like 10-20 max bets), but you'll more than likely dip above and below 5k profits and 5k losses. So when that happens I hope you recheck the RoR and math and realize you'll probably hit a -$5k dip due to just the natural variance of the game. HOPEFULLY you hit the good variance first, but if you don't you'll bust on $5k not because you're doing anything wrong at all, just because you're under funded. I hope your $5k is replenishable. You'd need more like $15k to play the limits/spreads you're around now. It's all in the articles =) hope you find them helpful!

Quote: beachbumbabs

Romes,

Speaking of spreads, just curious. I have a friend who spreads from 1 hand at 1k to 3 hands at 5k, plays for hours on end, gets the vip treatment from everybody. Seems like his increments are similar in scope to what you say would bring fast heat at a lower limit table, but he claims he's never had any heat. Do you think it's the dollar value that keeps him unbothered, or do you think they evaluate his play without telling him and have decided he doesn't count, or is there some other factor? Thanks.

1x$1000 to 3x$5000 is a 1-15 spread at a $1k game... You bet your a$$ they've had someone evaluate his/her play at that level. Other than a few exceptions (previously played poorly so they have that player profile, a female at an old school idiotic casino that thinks women don't know how to gamble, knowing higher ups in the casino exec chain which lets you play unmolested, just a REALLY UNCONCERNED aka no heat casino) I'd say it sounds like your friend isn't playing a winning game. Without one of those exceptions I find it exceedingly difficult to believe someone is counting and playing properly at that level and not getting picked off on the FIRST spread to 3x$5000 (or hell anytime they even bet $5k total after betting $1k).

If your friend found the holy grail of a place with just zero clue and zero heat then by all means, smash away... but even then at the end of the year when they show your friend up $X after Y hours, they'll probably still make a managerial decision to cut them off. They'll ALWAYS treat you like a high roller at first, and give you anything you want, all while reviewing your play in the background.

I'd be interested in seeing if your friend is actually playing a winning game. If they are, then they better have a bankroll of $500k+, and they should try to get their hours in, generate losses, rat hole, anything they can to stop that end of year bottom line from drawing the obvious conclusion.

Romes: Thanks for the tips. I'm not at the point in my life where I can lose more than 5k. I'll have to scale down my bets. Thanks.