Question for fellow card counters

I've been going to this casino for about 3 months now and am wondering why I havnt been backed off. I have been very successful there. I spread 15-200 and because they have the competition's equivalent to lucky ladies I put $25 on the bonus at +7. I generally put up a dollar on my medium and big bets for the dealer. I've gone in as much as $4200 one night and crawled my way back to a loss of $600. This casino owns three casino's in the area and I've been backed off by the other two. This was after like a day of play. I have a very goofy fun aloof attitude I bring to the table and was curious as too what is working as far as cover. Maybe they just don't care or are they're dumb as shit. What do you guys think?

Just keep playing until they do- don't question it
Nobody here could possibly tell you why they haven't

Most likely they just don't care or don't care below a certain bet level. I've had similar experiences. Back in my red to light green days I played many 8+ hour days for six months 25-200 or 5-2x80 on DD games after I had been backed off at their nearby sister property on first visit. Years after moving out of the area I recently went back to the one that tolerated me. Flat bet after 7 hours 25-2x400.

Decent amount of hours still but difference was they were comfortable with 200 but not 2x400. If it was my casino and my call id never mess with a counter max betting 200 on a shoe game even if my typical clientele was all red chippers. DD I MIGHT center cut it.

I have thought the same thing many times before. I think every casino has certain thresholds and your probably underneath it. I think like 200 and 500 are big levels. I think worrying about heat doesn't get the money so to speak, but playing based on the comfort level of that casino has merit. I know of dinky middle of no where casinos in rural areas that let you spread 5 by 250 and welcome you back while other places with terrible rules and pen will not tolerate red chippers spreading more than 2 to 1 on DD. I have even seen a Midwest casino that cuts literally a half shoe for anybody every time because they have such incompetent pit staff that mgmt probably thought they were saving money but in reality if they cut a half deck they could make a lot more cash.

Quote: Plopplopfizfiz

Maybe they just don't care or are they're dumb as shit.

Or they're actually smart about what to do with blackjack players. Your biggest bets might cost the casino about $5 each time. How many millions did it cost to build? What's their revenue and expenses? A good player making all the right indexes and max betting aggressively might earn $30 per hour when the casino is slow. Those of us who aren't as good or stuck at a full table might make $20 per hour under the conditions you list. The person who would be responsible for backing you off isn't going to see any of that money, so why would they do all the extra work that comes with cutting you off? It's much easier to explain to their boss why they missed a low level card counter than it is to explain kicking out a good customer. As a good tipper it would upset the dealers to see you kicked out. Management in any business doesn't want to see employee morale go down just to improve profits by a few dollars.

Only times I've ever been backed off happened when I first started and put in a four hour practice session with a $5 to $50 spread (looking back, very tack of them); the El Cortez after taking insurance on a big bet in single deck (but been back plenty of times since); and when using extremely large spreads for an hour (close to 30-1 on $5 dd and close to 50-1 on $2 shoe at the Longhorn). If you keep your sessions short, it's possible you can keep earning your $20-$30 per hour indefinitely. If you put in long days, it becomes much more likely you see heat

While more than likely they just don't care, it might not be all Apathy. As Tom stated, perhaps it's because they're SMART. Most counters, especially at lower levels, only earn $10-$30/hour... well, theoretically. Then it comes down to making all the correct plays, deck estimations, etc. Okay, great, you can do that... THEN it comes down to bankroll management and kelly betting! This last part even some of the better counters I've come across don't do! This is something that will inevitably lead even a good counter to bust.

You can be the best counter in the world, but if you only have $1k, and you're spreading $15-$200, you WILL inevitably go broke and a lot of the time people who just start out/etc will think "this doesn't work" then quit, leaving the casino with their $1k even though they knew how to count.

I personally think 1% of blackjack players count, and of that 1% maybe 10% have a TRUE winning game. If I were the casino, under a certain level of action I just simply wouldn't care if you were counting or not, as more than likely you do not fall in to that category and I will eventually get your money anyways.

Are you a successful counter? I would love to know what I was doing wrong if anything. I do not mind taking criticism if it helps my game. I have illustrious 18 down perfect BS 20,000 BR play almost every day. My deck estimations on close calls could use some evaluation as well as my understanding of Kelly betting. I use hi low and spread 1-15 to 1-20 depending on the game. In the last 6 months I've tripled my BR. I make $13 hr at my job so I have used some money for various needs as $13 hr gets me poop theses days. But my roll is still at 20,000 and playing 100+ hours a month. Any advice would be appreciated. This is definately a lonely journey and talking to people and getting advice really helps. Thanks for the response.

I'm assuming you were talking to Romes, but that's never stopped me from giving an answer before lol. Romes knows what he's talking about, has some articles called counting cards A-Z on here.

I play full time some counting some other stuff. I actually think I'll be out your way for a couple weeks next month (I think I've gathered what state you play in from your posts.) I'll probably send you a PM if I do. Sounds like you're doing well and progressing! Keep at it and keep the day job if you can, will help with the rough stretches that are bound to happen and can commit more of your extra $ to accelerating earn in your BR.

Thanks for your reply McAllister. Much appreciated. Happy trails and I'll be on the watch for a PM.

I'm not surprised that they let you play for 3 months. Some casinos have higher tolerance. Nothing lasts forever. I hope that you can continue to play forever but every counter eventually will get a tap on the shoulder and get 86ed. It does NOT mean that they don't know what you're doing when you experience no heat. I get many 86s without any prior heat at all.

Quote: Plopplopfizfiz

Are you a successful counter? I would love to know what I was doing wrong if anything....

I've counted for over a decade, and year to date am very much up =). Bankroll (after a large enough sampling size) is certainly a great way to keep score =p.

It sounds like you're doing everything right. Only you know your weaknesses... Whether it be learning more deviations, switching basic strategies between game rules, and changing spreads for different rules (TC +2 for H17 games as oppoesed to TC +1 for S17 games, typically). Do you have your bet spread ramped so that the biggest jump is at TC +3? TC +3 is the most valulable to the player, becuase it's got the best combination of player edge + frequency. This is where the biggest "jump" in your spread should occur.

At 100+ hours per month, assuming like 80 hands per hour, you should hit a decent N0 (the point at which it's impossible for you to be negative, if you have a winning game) at around 6 - 7 months! That's a TON of hours and a lot of work, but you'll see the benefits if you can stay the course.

Also, red chipping I don't think I ever got backed off. I had a decent act and was good at spotting heat (at least that's what I tell myself). When you jump up to green and higher, which you'll want to do when your bankroll can handle it, you'll start to get the feel that you can't put in 100+ hours per month unless you travel and put the hours in at a lot of different places.

Definitely keep an eye on your spread/bankroll/RoR... Often times players don't realiez you can spread $15-$225 (1-15) at Table A, and get a BETTER HOURLY at the empty $25 Table B simply by spreading $25-$250 (1-8), with the SAME RoR =)... and that 1-8 spread will get you no heat at a lot of 6D games, where often times you can find S17 for the $25 min. You have more options than you know... Keep your eyes out for better games/spreads/opportunities. One thing I learned when going through a 300+ hour losing patch with my partner was this: You can ALWAYS tweek your game in some way to get more EV... ALWAYS. Be sure to investigate all your options!

Thanks Romes for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to give me advice and I will take to heart. -PlopPlop