rdw4potus
rdw4potus
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
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April 25th, 2016 at 5:56:00 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

As a game designer, I can say that conditions never change unless game protection issues warrant it, and in those terms AP did kill the golden goose. There are no payout changes to craps, Pai Gow Poker, roulette, etc., over the years, only blackjack, and for this reason. The squeaky wheel got the grease.

I can understand the nostalgia ["*sigh*, the good old days of 3:2 Blackjack, - things were so much better then...*sigh*..."] as well as the operator's point of view ["Thank God THAT door is closing on them, - it's nice to see positive table hold numbers on a consistent basis..."]



No changes to craps, pai gow poker, roulette?!?

Craps - Field pays double/double and not triple/double. 30 for 1 instead of 30 to 1. Odds reduced.
PGP - Houseways are MUCH stronger now than they have been in the past. You've got to be kidding with this one - this is your bread and butter game...
Roulette: 00 looks a lot like 0. But it's actually a completely different thing, and it adds to the house edge...

Nobody was winning by counting on a $10 table with H17, no RSA, no surrender, and 60% penetration. The very fact that THIS is the game that is now 6:5, while higher denom tables with better peripheral rules are still 3:2, is enough to pretty clearly invalidate your premise.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
RS
RS
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April 25th, 2016 at 6:33:33 AM permalink
First of all, I think the average ploppy plays blackjack quite poorly, at least the guys who are in the party pits chugging down coors lite. Even on a 3:2 game, they're likely giving up an extra 2% advantage to the house by playing poorly. I don't think ANYONE here would be able to tell the difference between a 3:2 game vs 6:5, in a "blind taste test".

For a $10 bettor at 100 HPH (you ain't getting that at the party pits), the 6:5 vs 3:2 difference is $15/hour. Although BJ isn't highly volatile, it's volatile enough so that a player (even a professional) wouldn't be able to see or feel the difference in $15/hour...especially for just a few hours over a weekend trip (i.e.: not 800 hours a year).
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RenoGambler
RenoGambler
Joined: Apr 23, 2016
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April 25th, 2016 at 6:50:11 AM permalink
Casinos will offer 6:5 blackjack as long as people are playing it. Only empty tables will bring back 3:2 BJ. Hopefully this terrible game doesn't take over Reno the way it has much of Vegas.
Variance giveth and variance taketh away.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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April 25th, 2016 at 6:54:09 AM permalink
Pennsylvania's blackjack win has increased recently and they have s17 and surrender .
The mountain is tall but the grass grows on top of the mountain.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 25th, 2016 at 7:05:16 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Quote: Paigowdan

As a game designer, I can say that conditions never change unless game protection issues warrant it, and in those terms AP did kill the golden goose. There are no payout changes to craps, Pai Gow Poker, roulette, etc., over the years, only blackjack, and for this reason. The squeaky wheel got the grease.



The position that you are taking--that the dreaded AP's forced the change to 6:5 blackjack--seems to go against the grain of most articles on the subject. First of all, the idea of AP play (counting) being possible led to the increase in the popularity of blackjack, which has been talked about more than once.


I know this, - and I agree with this. The "hole" or trap door in the game for AP play also made it more popular for the masses, true. But what's the point here, that this AP hole is obligated to remain after its discovery by the masses? No, there's no obligation on this, implied or otherwise. The casinos offer what works for all parties, and that includes people willing to play 6:5. If people play a game because they mistakenly believe a game is beatable through a disallowed AP practice, and they are wrong, they shouldn't be surprised to discover that they were "just gambling instead of AP-ing"

Quote: RonC

More players failing as counters meant more money for the casinos to take.


Correction - more players failing as counters meant more money for the successful counters to take. This was the real situation, and it's going away. The casino operators eventually refused to be a part of that game. As for the casinos making money on failed counters, it is just as wrong for the casinos to make money from failed AP players as it is for good APs to reap from failed AP players.

Quote: RonC

Second, most of the commentary here has been that AP's actually take less money from the blackjack tables than the casinos spend trying to prevent it. To me, that sounds like a nuisance more than a reason to change the rules.

The issue of casinos stopping AP play by installing CSMs, 6:5 Blackjack or other variants is not based on the belief that is costs more to thwart AP play, but less. If countable Blackjack was the cash cow that counters claim it is, casinos would not have touched it. I have routinely seen gaming report figures of loses - negative holds - of 3:2 shoe games and double decks losing money on $500,000 of monthly drop or more, generally impossible to occur on a game-protected game. Secondly, if any AP feels that it is wasteful to institute gaming protection practices such as 6:5 blackjack or CSM machines as expensive, then know that this is the operators call to spend and allocate their operational money as they see fit. They also think changing a layout to say "6:5" instead of "3:2" is damn cheap and cost effective. Commentary here or at any Internet forum consists basically of gripes or sour grapes on what is a casino decision.

Quote: RonC

You've made a statement about "why" the conditions changed--can you provide some proof of that?"


Yes, the fact that this action was taken. I can also say that proof of what induced that decision is immaterial, just that the decision to go to 6:5 was made.

Quote: RonC

Absent proof, the reason behind 6:5 is much the same as the changes to craps rules in some places that have them paying 30 for 1 instead of 30 to 1.


30 for 1 versus 30 to 1 crap game payouts on the 2 and 12 are geographically based, with 30 for 1 NOT replacing out 30 to 1 at locals properties ervsus strip locations. Furthermore, a crap player does not have to bet the one-roll 2 or 12 bet, but the blackjack player has to play the main bet that is affected on blackjack.

Quote: RonC

6:5 is a way for the house to keep more money than 3:2. They may be in bad shape and need the money, they may be unable to run good promotions to draw players, the boss may have said I need a higher hold, etc. It matters little what the reason is...it is another way to shear the sheep a little quicker.


You're right, it matters little what the reason is except to restore profits, but that 6:5 reason by the operators was to address losses from card counting, and where the 6:5 shearing shears the card counter more than proportionally.

Quote: RonC

This is the same as tightening the slot machines or any other change...get the money quicker. The sheep won't notice!


But the card counter will, because it closes a hole in the game he formerly exploited.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Apr 25, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Hunterhill
Hunterhill
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April 25th, 2016 at 7:15:05 AM permalink
Dan I don't really think the profits are down because of counters I think overall it's because the general public has become educated.Most players have casinos close to where they live and they learn to play something close to basic strategy. Years ago when there was only Vegas, players played much worse.
The mountain is tall but the grass grows on top of the mountain.
RonC
RonC
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April 25th, 2016 at 7:17:39 AM permalink
Where do I begin...

If a table is dropping $500k in a month and no one notices, someone should be fired. I guess 6:5 is a way to "fix" the problem at the expense of every player, but perhaps actually observing and taking action when counters are caught would preserve the integrity of the game on the floor and the experience for the gambler.

Attribute it to whatever you want, but my "ploppy" dollars are lost faster now than ever with tightening, tweaking, fixing, stopping APs, whatever...tighter slots, worse pay tables, etc. take the money away faster and make the trips a lot less fun. I am not an AP and I expect to lose whatever I take to gamble...but I do play to win as best I can and I like for my money to have a half life on the table of more than 30 seconds. All of the attempts to grab it quicker and add shitty games makes the experience--which is what is for sale in Las Vegas and at other casinos--worth less.

I don't gamble as often because of it.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 25th, 2016 at 7:36:44 AM permalink
Quote: Hunterhill

Dan I don't really think the profits are down because of counters I think overall it's because the general public has become educated.Most players have casinos close to where they live and they learn to play something close to basic strategy. Years ago when there was only Vegas, players played much worse.



The general improvement in play is a bit part of it, too, yes, but it would NOT have resulted in consistently negative holds (losses), which casinos must address.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 25th, 2016 at 7:41:10 AM permalink
Quote: RonC

Where do I begin...

If a table is dropping $500k in a month and no one notices, someone should be fired. I guess 6:5 is a way to "fix" the problem at the expense of every player, but perhaps actually observing and taking action when counters are caught would preserve the integrity of the game on the floor and the experience for the gambler.


True, it is at the expense of every blackjack player. 6:5 is simply a bad value at 2% HE, there's no other way to put it.

Quote: RonC

Attribute it to whatever you want, but my "ploppy" dollars are lost faster now than ever with tightening, tweaking, fixing, stopping APs, whatever...tighter slots, worse pay tables, etc. take the money away faster and make the trips a lot less fun. I am not an AP and I expect to lose whatever I take to gamble...but I do play to win as best I can and I like for my money to have a half life on the table of more than 30 seconds. All of the attempts to grab it quicker and add shitty games makes the experience--which is what is for sale in Las Vegas and at other casinos--worth less.

I don't gamble as often because of it.



This is a sad but natural consequence of 6:5 for the blackjack player, and it is regrettable.
I generally stick to craps, Pai Gow Poker, UTH, and notice little change for that reason.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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April 25th, 2016 at 7:55:50 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus


No changes to craps, pai gow poker, roulette?!?

Craps - Field pays double/double and not triple/double. 30 for 1 instead of 30 to 1. Odds reduced.


Again, is - and always had been - a locals' property versus strip property convention. Go off strip for better odds.

[rdw]PGP - Houseways are MUCH stronger now than they have been in the past. You've got to be kidding with this one - this is your bread and butter game...
I know. I was the guy re-writing a number of the stronger house ways; I was asked by an exec of MGM Resorts a few years ago to supply them stronger PGP house ways. For that matter, PGP play had become stronger also.

Roulette: 00 looks a lot like 0. But it's actually a completely different thing, and it adds to the house edge...
Single Zero American roulette has been in existence alongside single zero European roulette since antiquity, with single zero targeted for high rollers.

[rdw]Nobody was winning by counting on a $10 table with H17, no RSA, no surrender, and 60% penetration. The very fact that THIS is the game that is now 6:5, while higher denom tables with better peripheral rules are still 3:2, is enough to pretty clearly invalidate your premise.


No. If it weren't an issue, it wouldn't have been touched.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.

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