Golden Touch Blackjack, Speed Count
Quote: Mikey75Thanks for the responce Ace. I'm glad to hear that you are still ahead after four years.
It is a roller coaster!
Quote: Mikey75Thanks for the responce Ace. I'm glad to hear that you are still ahead after four years.
Mikey, I hope you are not considering this very weak count. The variance is huge and it takes a huge spread and a huge bankroll. While it is possible to be ahead after four years, it is unlikely especially with the very small spread employed by aceofspades. He is the exception although "in the positive" doesn't really tell us much.
How weak it is depends on who you speak to because it's difficult to sim. The general consensus is that it has one third the power of Hi-Lo and a lot more risk.
If you are a casual player looking for a step up from basic strategy go ahead and use it. Anyone serious about blackjack can do better without much more difficulty.
I've found speed count extremely easy to learn. I do understand the easier it is to learn the lesser of a advantage it will give. I've searched for independent studies of speed count but I haven't been able to find much. I would love for Wizard to do his own test on the count but with it being out as long as it has been I doubt that's going to happen. While we don't know how much Ace is up after four years, the fact that he is still up after four years of play should indicate that the system has worked to some degree. I doubt anyone would be up after four years on basic strategy alone.
I will look into the KO count. I really don't know anything about it.
The only real problem I have with speed count for the recreational player is that FOR ME, i don't find it any easier then KO or other counts of that nature. The hard part of counting for me, that requires the most practice, is remembering the current count while playing my hand and dealing with other distractions. For others speed count might be the easier, so have at it :)
Quote: Mikey75I'm defiantly just a recreational player. I'm not looking to play full time or try to earn a income from playing blackjack. I've spent hours playing at home practicing basic strategy. I've studied hi-lo briefly but for my limited play I'm not going to spend the time to learn it properly. That leaves me searching for other answers to lower the house edge as much as possible with devoting a significant amount of time to learning a count.
I've found speed count extremely easy to learn. I do understand the easier it is to learn the lesser of a advantage it will give. I've searched for independent studies of speed count but I haven't been able to find much. I would love for Wizard to do his own test on the count but with it being out as long as it has been I doubt that's going to happen. While we don't know how much Ace is up after four years, the fact that he is still up after four years of play should indicate that the system has worked to some degree. I doubt anyone would be up after four years on basic strategy alone.
I will look into the KO count. I really don't know anything about it.
You can always start with KO Rookie. It's very easy and it will get you the money. As you progress, you can move up to other versions of KO.
Quote: aceofspadesOver 4 years I am in the positive :)[/q. But the next session may change all that. With or without evenbobs voodoo doll
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Quote: DrEntropyThe only real problem I have with speed count for the recreational player is that FOR ME, i don't find it any easier then KO or other counts of that nature.
Yes, exactly, this is my point as well. It's not so much that I have a problem with giving something up, it's that I have a problem with giving something up and getting nothing in return. I don't find it any simpler than KO or Red 7 or any other simple unbalanced count that doesn't require a TC conversion.
I'm curious about your sims -- did the HiLo sim include strategy deviations based on index numbers, or was it just bet sizing and basic strategy?
Because a lot of people have trouble with TC conversions (either the estimation of how many decks are left, or the division) I think that a better comparison would be to KO or Red 7 or a similar count, without including any deviations from basic strategy (since this is how a new player is likely to start)
As for the sims, I used Sweet 16 and the Fab 4, ramp was 1-8. The game was 6DS17DAS. For Speed Count I used Scoblettes OBS and his ramps.
I think there are comparisons of KO to HiLo out there that can be used to fill in the rest :) The idea was to use HiLo in "best you can do mode" to compare with.
Quote: BuzzardBut the next session may change all that. With or without evenbobs voodoo doll
Buzz - absolutely correct, just like the MIT teams with HUGE bankrolls, team play and using high-level counts still had losing sessions. Anytime you place a bet not he table, regardless of how much of a +EV you have, you can still lose.
Keeping up with the count is where my problem lies. That and dealing with negative counts. Speed count eliminates that and it really does seem much easier to me. I'm going to practice with the KO count some and see if I can get a comfort level with it.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSo start at 0. Raise your bet when its bigger than 27, lower your bet when it's below.
Exactly, you can use whatever IRCs (initial running counts) you want to tweak the system to your taste.
I started out using Red 7 but also had difficulty with negative numbers, so I just adopted the IRCs from KISS III. So for a 6 deck shoe I start at 9, count red 7s (everything else the same as Hi-Lo) and raise my bet at a count of 20. Actually I simmed this in qfit and it actually makes sense to raise at 19 depending on the game and the rules.
Really, investing in the qfit software will help answer a lot of questions. But if you are just a casual player, it's probably hard to justify the expense. I like to think I'm one step up from casual, but on my last trip I didn't use any indexes other than 16v10 and Insurance :(. I had most of I18 memorized but my practice hours fell off when work got busy. So, my next project is to use CVIndex to generate indexes specifically for 6D an DD for Red 7. The KISS III indexes are probably a bit off for 6D and probably more off for 2D, since it is predicated on counting every other 2 and all 7s, not every other 7 and all 2s.
Anyway. Lots of other projects on my AP backburner too, like getting HC strategy down so I can correctly play that game if I ever find one.
It also keeps your stats including basic strategy play. I thought I had basic strategy down cold but according to the app I'm playing basic strategy right 95% of the time. Of course there could be a wrong setting in the app, but it's more than likely a error in my play.
Quote: Mikey75I discovered a awesome free app last night for my iphone. It's called blackjack pro 21. It keeps the count for hi-lo and KO. It was interesting to keep the count with speed count and compare it to both hi-lo and KO. Speed count was always close but when the count started to rise, speed count normally indicated a advantage one hand before KO and two hands before hi-lo. Likewise it indicated a advantage a couple of hands afterward. I'm going to really enjoy playing around with this app.
It also keeps your stats including basic strategy play. I thought I had basic strategy down cold but according to the app I'm playing basic strategy right 95% of the time. Of course there could be a wrong setting in the app, but it's more than likely a error in my play.
Could it be the difference between S17 and H17? They do not have the same basic strategy.
i'm are wrong?
Quote: Callitmagicthanks! finally i found some more infos. Clearly not as powerful as others but surely there is value on knowing and keeping track if more low cards were dealt vs the average expected. And surely there is some value to know if the deviation from average is significant.
i'm are wrong?
Umm...yes, you are wrong. But welcome to the site anyway. :)
If you are going to put in the effort, then don't do it half-assed. One of the more legitimate, single level counts, like hi-lo, or K-O, is just a little bit more effort, with significant better results. If you are opposed to the true count conversion, as some are, there are legitimate single level counts that have removed that step at just a small cost.
About the best you can hope for with speed count is maybe to cut down the house edge. Why would anyone want to stop there. The goal is to FLIP the house edge.
No offense to anyone that may have invented, marketed or is embracing and playing speed count. It is just a terrible choice for today's games. (this is where I would normally insert the "IMO", but I don't think this statement qualifies as an opinion. It is a fact.)
Hopefully AOS doesn't see this post.Quote: kewljUmm...yes, you are wrong. But welcome to the site anyway. :)
If you are going to put in the effort, then don't do it half-assed. One of the more legitimate, single level counts, like hi-lo, or K-O, is just a little bit more effort, with significant better results. If you are opposed to the true count conversion, as some are, there are legitimate single level counts that have removed that step at just a small cost.
About the best you can hope for with speed count is maybe to cut down the house edge. Why would anyone want to stop there. The goal is to FLIP the house edge.
No offense to anyone that may have invented, marketed or is embracing and playing speed count. It is just a terrible choice for today's games. (this is where I would normally insert the "IMO", but I don't think this statement qualifies as an opinion. It is a fact.)
Quote: kewljUmm...yes, you are wrong. But welcome to the site anyway. :)
If you are going to put in the effort, then don't do it half-assed. One of the more legitimate, single level counts, like hi-lo, or K-O, is just a little bit more effort, with significant better results. If you are opposed to the true count conversion, as some are, there are legitimate single level counts that have removed that step at just a small cost.
About the best you can hope for with speed count is maybe to cut down the house edge. Why would anyone want to stop there. The goal is to FLIP the house edge.
No offense to anyone that may have invented, marketed or is embracing and playing speed count. It is just a terrible choice for today's games. (this is where I would normally insert the "IMO", but I don't think this statement qualifies as an opinion. It is a fact.)
I think the board is beyond admonishing me for using SC and not moving onwards and upwards - I take no offense to this at all
I think the board and I have a mutual understanding that, when and if I would like to move onwards and upwards, they will be there to assist that endeavor
Until then, we can all enjoy ourselves here and, especially, in my trip reports :)
Quote: aceofspadesI think the board is beyond admonishing me for using SC and not moving onwards and upwards - I take no offense to this at all
I think the board and I have a mutual understanding that, when and if I would like to move onwards and upwards, they will be there to assist that endeavor
Until then, we can all enjoy ourselves here and, especially, in my trip reports :)
I knew you would think that comment was directed at you. It really wasn't. You are one of the more visible players we know of playing SC and I guess it is working for you and you are satisfied, so power to you. I have voiced my opinion to you (which you never asked for), so I am not really harping on you, nor was that comment directed at you specifically. In this particular case it was directed at a new member (or at least new handle) who was considering SC as an option.
Quote: kewljI knew you would think that comment was directed at you. It really wasn't. You are one of the more visible players we know of playing SC and I guess it is working for you and you are satisfied, so power to you. I have voiced my opinion to you (which you never asked for), so I am not really harping on you, nor was that comment directed at you specifically. In this particular case it was directed at a new member (or at least new handle) who was considering SC as an option.
Oh I knew you weren't posting this as a personal message to me - just figured I would get involved once AxelWolf came on board! lol
Quote: aceofspadesOh I knew you weren't posting this as a personal message to me - just figured I would get involved once AxelWolf came on board! lol
That is still likely. :)
I have a feeling that if you haven't wanted to move onwards and upwards by now it's not something you will ever do. I think you enjoy playing BJ for fun.Quote: aceofspadesI think the board is beyond admonishing me for using SC and not moving onwards and upwards - I take no offense to this at all
I think the board and I have a mutual understanding that, when and if I would like to move onwards and upwards, they will be there to assist that endeavor
Until then, we can all enjoy ourselves here and, especially, in my trip reports :)
I think you occasionally use hunches and even leave SC out occasionally? Perhaps a tad bit superstitious?
Counting religiously takes some FUN out of BJ because there's no room for hunches and superstitions.
And yes, evryone likey the TR'S
