Barona Full Playing Conditions

Hey guys,

I'm going to be in San Diego later this month and will get my first shot at playing at the infamous Barona.

I'm an experienced TKO player and red-chipper who would love to just spend just a few hours at this joint, check out the BJ Hall of Fame, and get a good meal.

Can anyone give me the download/low-down on Barona in 2015?

Playing conditions. Table limits. Experiences playing there. Etc.

I'd appreciate any info that you have. Thanks!

Hopefully you know all the necessary stuff, surveillance, max Rubin, back off, don't be too aggressive, etc.

But they are very quick to comp there, not sure if you'll be playing rated or not though.

They got awesome $1 tacos.

The hamburger place & milkshakes are awesome. Don't remember what they cost but the ice cream is like $1 for a double scoop or something too. Pretty much everything good, even the buffet.

Super lax with ap players. They almost definitely won't backoff a red chipper whose there for a little bit. Make sure to go in with an appetite and try the buffet. Best around

Tons of double deck games but they're usually $25 min so you might have to go during off hours to find lower limits.

The pit bosses are the best I've experienced in the country - they'll see you fluctuating your bet and immediately check if you're counting by rifling through the discard tray. Don't expect to play here long without some good cover. The only way we were able to play more than 15 minutes at the green chip level was by crashing our bet back to 1 unit despite the TC 8 on the table when the pit was counting down the discard tray.

And as RS said, get in on the food court. Everything's insanely cheap. Footlong hotdogs, tacos, etc. for a few bucks.

They do count down the tray and usually call eye in the sky but Rarely backoff quickly even when they know. I've sat there for many many hours spreading $25-$600 even after pit counted tray without a problem. I'm sure OP will be fine.

Quote: Flippyfish

They do count down the tray and usually call eye in the sky but Rarely backoff quickly even when they know. I've sat there for many many hours spreading $25-$600 even after pit counted tray without a problem. I'm sure OP will be fine.

So in other words this is the Number 1 casino in the country for AP BJ players?

Wow guys, this is all great information.

But at the same time, I'm hearing super conflicting information.

On the one hand, they are lax, but on the other hand, they check the general count and scope out the cards in the discard tray?

Does it just depend on what level you're at?

The most I'd be doing is 10-50 on the Double Deck and 10-100 on the Six Deck.

Quote: Amlee

Wow guys, this is all great information.

But at the same time, I'm hearing super conflicting information.

On the one hand, they are lax, but on the other hand, they check the general count and scope out the cards in the discard tray?

Does it just depend on what level you're at?

The most I'd be doing is 10-50 on the Double Deck and 10-100 on the Six Deck.

I haven't been there, so take this for what it's worth, but they have a reputation (that they encourage) for a "hit me with your best shot, AP". They're on my list of top 10 casinos to visit, so I'll be interested in hearing your trip report, please.

Don't get me wrong they will back ppl off but they are incredibly lax. Ex: I went every single day for 12 days straight playing an average of 6-8 hours per day at 1-24 spread lol(stupid and greedy I know) and I didn't get backed off till day 13 and it was undoubtedly the most amicable backoff I've had and they had clearly known I was counting for awhile but they really didn't seem to care. Honestly your biggest concern should be finding a 6 deck table. This past year they've cinverted to a lot of csm tables now. Otherwise their DD games are still solid

Shouldn't have any trouble red chipping. The double deck really isn't a very good game. Mediocre-poor penetration, generally crowded tables are a recipe for a marginal game. Also surrender isn't as valuable as you'd think on DD, the value increases as number of decks does.

You won't find any DD under $25. I've been there a lot and never seen one. Also yes, conditions are very crowded.

It's been 5 years since I played at Barona (moved away)

When I played there I used NO cover, red chipper, at times played for 10+ hours. I know they know I count. spread 5 to 200, never even a second glance and easy with the comps. Over 7+ years my spreadsheet shows never a losing year there (3-4 times a month).

Hi-Lo, not much BS variation (just insurance, so surrender, 16 & 15, amount half of the illustrious 18)

I was always super polite, never bet more than $250, low key, no problems.

I'm at a different stage in life now, and I even got to see Max in action a couple times. Not sure I'd count there now just out of who he is and where I am.

side note, one night with a $200 bet out split eights 4 times with 2 double downs dealer showing 6 in a TC +5 situation ..... dealer 5,6,A,10 I almost had a heart attack when the six showed up ... I left right after !

mel

Quote: melroyalmcbee

It's been 5 years since I played at Barona (moved away)

....

side note, one night with a $200 bet out split eights 4 times with 2 double downs dealer showing 6 in a TC +5 situation ..... dealer 5,6,A,10 I almost had a heart attack when the six showed up ... I left right after !

mel

That's my BJ nightmare no matter which way it goes. I've had them go both ways, but the worst for me was...Got to 7 bets once playing $40 (can't recall the exact hands from 12 years ago, think it was 4's and the BS was to split according to the card) with 2 dbls, plus I was playing a 2nd hand....and I lost. Makes you sick to your stomach to see that. Really nice you won.

had some nutso losses like that too, very recently. 8,3 with $300 out, double, get a 9, dealer has something like 4,2,4,3,2,6. puked in my own mouth.

Quote: melroyalmcbee

had some nutso losses like that too, very recently. 8,3 with $300 out, double, get a 9, dealer has something like 4,2,4,3,2,6. puked in my own mouth.

So the following round was a max bet then huh? =P

Quote: Amlee

I'm going to be in San Diego later this month and will get my first shot at playing at the infamous Barona.

Barona should not be called "infamous" because that means famous for something bad. Instead, the Barona is a great casino and my favorite in the San Diego area, by far. When they used to have their single-deck game I saw other players counting it, but not too aggressively, and nobody stopped them. I also did a simple 1-2 spread and nobody stopped me. They put up with Stephen How of Discount Gambling for years before they told him to stop.

It is definitely a casino that respects advantage play as long as it isn't too aggressive. Of course, they also respect their role as the cat as much as the advantage player is the mouse.

Quote: melroyalmcbee

side note, one night with a $200 bet out split eights 4 times with 2 double downs dealer showing 6 in a TC +5 situation ..... dealer 5,6,A,10 I almost had a heart attack when the six showed up ... I left right after !

mel

I have a dumb question. Lol. I don't get the total. The dealer dealt themselves 5, 6, A, 10? What happened? Duh.

Quote: BigJer

I have a dumb question. Lol. I don't get the total. The dealer dealt themselves 5, 6, A, 10? What happened? Duh.

He did all of his splits/doubles to the dealer up card 6. When the dealer flipped her bottom card it was a 5, for 6-5, a total of 11 in a heavy deck which scared the crap out of mel... but then the dealer drew an Ace, to make 12, and a slight sigh of relief especially after the 10 followed to BUST the dealer with 22.

Quote: Romes

He did all of his splits/doubles to the dealer up card 6. When the dealer flipped her bottom card it was a 5, for 6-5, a total of 11 in a heavy deck which scared the crap out of mel... but then the dealer drew an Ace, to make 12, and a slight sigh of relief especially after the 10 followed to BUST the dealer with 22.

Thanks man. Just wanted to clarify.

yup. yah have to :) but I'm not saying it's easy to push out another max bet after that. I think if you can't, you might be playing above your level. To be honest, there have been sessions especially early on when I didn't push out max bets.

Quote: melroyalmcbee

yup. yah have to :) but I'm not saying it's easy to push out another max bet after that. I think if you can't, you might be playing above your level. To be honest, there have been sessions especially early on when I didn't push out max bets.

I know what you mean!

I've never been able to figure that out -- how a card counter would be scared to push out a max bet, especially after a win! That is the exact situation you want to be in.

when you're just starting out and your bankroll is small it can sometimes be difficult to do. just being honest ... it's not the right play to not put out max bets but if you're on a losing streak (I had one go 3 months) one can start to have doubts.

I'd like to say I was always a machine but that wouldn't be the truth.

mel

It's 50/50 to be honest. You're either on one side of the coin or the other. I've heard countless counters say they thought they were getting heat when they weren't, etc, etc. It comes down to how a new counter got their info. If they hear nothing but how much heat you get, etc, then they'll be scared to put out the big bet. Also, if they're not used to gambling or betting larger at all, it can be a bit scary to go from a $10 flat bet player to now betting $200 per hand... Especially on a short bankroll which 95% of new counters have.

I was on the other side of the coin though, with you RS. I was the one who couldn't bet enough and was over betting my bankroll because I knew that I had an advantage =P. This is the other side of the coin. Figure out you have an advantage and you want to just HAMMER it. I also played a lotttttttt of poker before learning to count, so I was used to going all in for $500 or $1k. A $200 big bet wasn't a big deal to me.

Update on playing conditions as of today September 12, 2019. Barona has converted many of their blackjack games to Free Bet Blackjack, and some other carnival variants which really hampers finding a good normal Blackjack game. They don't open many tables up keeping most of the tables crowded. They're also (like many other casinos have been for a while now) implementing a countermeasure in the shufflers which create groups of cards to exploit basic strategy/card counting. You'll notice this when suddenly after one shuffle the cards get sorted in a way that's totally impossible from just doing one machine shuffle. It'll group A,2,3,4s & 9s together … create a group of about 12-14 Ten valued cards, create a group of 6,7,8s (core cards) and sometimes have Aces with 10s bunched up so the dealer will usually get a blackjack when a player does. This is nothing new to some very advanced players, and is being discussed thoroughly on blackjack info. So what happens is usually the unwary player cuts about 12-14 ten valued cards out of play (because most players cut the upper deck thin to win). Remember they're playing percentages... if 90% of the players cut this way, those 12-14 ten valued cards will be out of play which is the same as taking them out of the deck since they're behind the cut card ;) Simple & Genius I might add... Even if you cut the back of decks and put the 10s into play, they come out all bunched and usually the dealer has a 20 also thus creating an entire table push (maybe a stray card is in the mix but it's 95% 10 valued cards). This is the same as taking all those 10 valued cards out of play... so this happens one way or the other. There are some other card grouping scenarios that can happen as well but this to give you a general idea. Pechanga double deck games have really gone bad. Extreme positive counts and the 10 valued cards don't show until the very end... which by then is too late unless you know how to exploit this or just leave. This doesn't happen all the time, just when the house wants to increase the drop or cool off a certain table that's dumping. Again they play percentages... if it's done here & there year after year, it really increases their edge! Don't think your safe from hand shuffled games either... some experienced dealers can create slugs of low cards and high cards to really alter the game in the houses favor... even on single deck (which sucks nowadays anyway at most casinos...). :D

That's ridiculous - you're essentially claiming that shuffling machines and dealers are being programmed / trained to stack the deck and present other than a random shuffle. Dream on with your conspiracy theories.

God I'm stupider for reading your post.

Quote: NIghtshifter

Update on playing conditions as of today September 12, 2019. Barona has converted many of their blackjack games to Free Bet Blackjack, and some other carnival variants which really hampers finding a good normal Blackjack game. They don't open many tables up keeping most of the tables crowded. They're also (like many other casinos have been for a while now) implementing a countermeasure in the shufflers which create groups of cards to exploit basic strategy/card counting. You'll notice this when suddenly after one shuffle the cards get sorted in a way that's totally impossible from just doing one machine shuffle. It'll group A,2,3,4s & 9s together … create a group of about 12-14 Ten valued cards, create a group of 6,7,8s (core cards) and sometimes have Aces with 10s bunched up so the dealer will usually get a blackjack when a player does. This is nothing new to some very advanced players, and is being discussed thoroughly on blackjack info. So what happens is usually the unwary player cuts about 12-14 ten valued cards out of play (because most players cut the upper deck thin to win). Remember they're playing percentages... if 90% of the players cut this way, those 12-14 ten valued cards will be out of play which is the same as taking them out of the deck since they're behind the cut card ;) Simple & Genius I might add... Even if you cut the back of decks and put the 10s into play, they come out all bunched and usually the dealer has a 20 also thus creating an entire table push (maybe a stray card is in the mix but it's 95% 10 valued cards). This is the same as taking all those 10 valued cards out of play... so this happens one way or the other. There are some other card grouping scenarios that can happen as well but this to give you a general idea. Pechanga double deck games have really gone bad. Extreme positive counts and the 10 valued cards don't show until the very end... which by then is too late unless you know how to exploit this or just leave. This doesn't happen all the time, just when the house wants to increase the drop or cool off a certain table that's dumping. Again they play percentages... if it's done here & there year after year, it really increases their edge! Don't think your safe from hand shuffled games either... some experienced dealers can create slugs of low cards and high cards to really alter the game in the houses favor... even on single deck (which sucks nowadays anyway at most casinos...). :D

Then cut it deep to win a heap.

That's because the Barona wants to more thoroughly analyze your play to make sure you really are as sharp as you claim to be. The ultimate stress test for any card counter is the Barona.

Personally, I'd resort to wonging or flat betting while avoiding negative counts.