Late Surrender

The other day I thought I noticed a glitch in the software on this site when playing BJ. I put in the parameters 2D, DAS, H17,LS. Then I noticed when I was dealt 8,9 vs dealer A that surrender was recommended. I almost never play 6- and 8-deck games in Vegas that offer surrender (I play DD where no store offers LS) and was unaware of this play. I would probably never play a 6- or 8-D game that was H17 anyway. But still, I was more than a little surprised that one should surrender 17 vs A (even though I did know that the dealer more often improved on S17 when hitting).

The main text I have used for strategy does not mention this surrender play in the section on H17 rule variations.
My question: What is the BS EV for standing on hard 17 vs surrender when the dealer has an A up-card in a 6D, H17 game?

Surrendering 17 against A is basic strategy, in H17 game 17 against A has EV of around -.51 IIRC, where any hand with EV more negative than -.5 justifies surrendering.

17 has negative EV against any dealer up card, even a 6 or 5.

Well then it's a really close call (not that I wouldn't make the right play!). Thanks for the answer. I've also noticed that most authors do not mention splitting 3,3 vs a dealer 8 in a SD, DAS game. I know the EV for this play is really, really close (and the game is impossible to find).

It's interesting that you point out the weakness of 17 vs a dealer 5 or 6. And a lot of players think that when they stand on a 12 vs dealer 5 or 6 that it's +EV, but it's "lose less".

Edit: so I was just playing blackjack on this site and got a K,7 vs dealer A. I stand. And I don't get a recommendation that this play should be surrender. Is 9,8 different than K,7? I can see where having a K out lowers the bust card probabilities slightly for the dealer.

Quote: Greasyjohn

Well then it's a really close call (not that I wouldn't make the right play!). Thanks for the answer. I've also noticed that most authors do not mention splitting 3,3 vs a dealer 8 in a SD, DAS game. I know the EV for this play is really, really close (and the game is impossible to find).

It's interesting that you point out the weakness of 17 vs a dealer 5 or 6. And a lot of players think that when they stand on a 12 vs dealer 5 or 6 that it's +EV, but it's "lose less".

Edit: so I was just playing blackjack on this site and got a K,7 vs dealer A. I stand. And I don't get a recommendation that this play should be surrender. Is 9,8 different than K,7? I can see where having a K out lowers the bust card probabilities slightly for the dealer.

If anything, I'd imagine it'd be the other way around. Removing a ten means less chance of a bust = even worse EV for player. With an 8,9, EV is better for the player, since that's 1 extra card the dealer can't have in the hole. At least I think so..

A fun play (if you're card-counting) is to insure your 17vsA at max bet [when the count is +3 or w/e it is for HiLo]....then surrender! Ah, people love that play!

RS, in your first paragraph we agree, not disagree.

I think 17 is the worst hand to have in blackjack. "Mother-in-law" they call it.

For those that may not know why it's called "the Mother-in-law" it's because you want to hit it but you can't.

Too funny. It's nice to learn something new everyday.