ACE/5 Count

It has been awhile since I posted:

I have been playing in Vegas and back home in WA state. When in WA I play exclusively Spanish 21 w/ redouble, I learned the BS from this site and enjoy the 3-300 betting limits, most places it is 5-300. W/ the many splits and redoubles this makes for an exciting game w/ some wild swings - very easy to have 1200 out there when betting max.

Anyways : I typically keep track of the Aces/5's w/ a red and white chip , when the reds double the # of whites I increase my bet typically a 10-1 spread. I also do this when I play BJ- no Spanish 21 in Vegas .


Would this strategy at least get me even w/ the casino ? I have had many ups and down over the years and just wanted to know if this simple strategy is even worth it - I also do this at double deck .

Your thoughts ?

Hey Don, and welcome back? =P

Unfortunately I don't think you have a very winning game. Not only is the Ace/5 count a very, very weak count, but it sounds like you're also not leveraging any particular part of it other than "when the aces double the fives". Since it's Spanish I assume it's a shoe game? This would yield slightly better results at a 1D or maybe 2D game though.

You spread $5-$300 with no problems? Undoubtedly your play has been looked at by surveillance if you've ever played from near table min to table max... and if they haven't given you the boot what does that tell you? They don't find you to be a threat... and/or you have a losing game.

If you're going to take some time in to trying something, there are counts specifically made for Spanish 21 that don't involve true count conversions/etc. When you hit a certain number, you bet more, etc. I believe the late Katarina Walker has been said to have a great book on Spanish/Pontoon including counting system/etc.

Basically Ace-5 is useful only for Stand Soft 17 games of regular Blackjack, or games with a House advantage less than 0.4%. As romes stated, not useful, and even dangerous on Spanish-21. GL

no ace 5 is useful in both games of spanish 21 and there are sims out there to prove it along with posts

Quote: Ayjacks

no ace 5 is useful in both games of spanish 21 and there are sims out there to prove it along with posts

There's a reason A-5 count exists, as yes, technically it can "beat" some games. Define "beat" though. If you mean run through 100,000,000 hands (in a sym) and show a net positive, then yes. If you mean play 100,000 hands, which is what a lot of people that use this type of system play in their LIFETIME, then no, your Standard Deviations won't be above zero, thus you're still gambling.

There's a reason no serious player uses this system... There's systems pretty much as simple that are multitudes more powerful, such as Hi/Low. Then, you can go beyond that if you so fancy, but I don't see the reason to.

Quote: Romes

There's a reason A-5 count exists, as yes, technically it can "beat" some games. Define "beat" though. If you mean run through 100,000,000 hands (in a sym) and show a net positive, then yes. If you mean play 100,000 hands, which is what a lot of people that use this type of system play in their LIFETIME, then no, your Standard Deviations won't be above zero, thus you're still gambling.

There's a reason no serious player uses this system... There's systems pretty much as simple that are multitudes more powerful, such as Hi/Low. Then, you can go beyond that if you so fancy, but I don't see the reason to.

Interesting view, thanks. As the WoO put it, “Ace/five is a simple way to overcome the small house edge in blackjack, with little worry over being recognized as a card counter”.

Instead of counting only 2 cards (Aces and 5s) would counting 2 more cards, a second best friend and a second worst enemy, deliver a significantly better advantage to the player, above the Ace/five 0.30% to 0.57%? If so, what should the additional 2 cards be? When counting 4 cards would the decision point still be a count of +2 to double the last bet?

Hi Jamont, and welcome to the forums.

My honest opinion is if you're trying to count to overcome the house edge, you really should just learn Hi/Low. It's going to build on the same exact principals and use some of the same math. The only difference is instead of having 4 cards to track (as you suggest above) you simply have 3 groupings of cards... 2 through 5, 7 through 9, and 10 through A.

If you're worried about being identified as a card counter then you simply can use a smaller spread, like 1-8 on shoe games and 1-6 on DD games. This really shouldn't get you any level of heat, especially if you're a red chip player. When I was red chipping I spread $5 to 2x$50, so essentially $5 to $75 and I never even got blinked at. I would also camp out for hours on end at the same place and again, never had any issues.

To sum it up, if you're going to learn the same basic principals (bankroll management, risk of ruin/RoR, etc, etc) you really should just take the very small extra effort to learn a real system used by real pro's in today's world... and wouldn't you know it I hear there are a few articles on this very site that can take you from "A to Z" =).

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-In-Blackjack-2/
https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/A-to-Z-Counting-Cards-in-Blackjack-3/

Quote: Romes

... To sum it up, if you're going to learn the same basic principals (bankroll management, risk of ruin/RoR, etc, etc) you really should just take the very small extra effort to learn a real system used by real pro's in today's world...

I hear you and don't argue against that... you're right... but that's not where I am coming from. I may eventually run full speed ahead into the card counting world, but for now I just want to walk into this new territory just to feel my way around. I am an occasional blackjack player, I like it, but I am not yet ready to invest significantly more time into it. So I want to walk into card counting with something simple to understand and do. The Ace/five system seems to meet that straightforward objective: few cards to track, no deviations/indexes to memorize, no changes to my playing decisions strategy, no acting to avoid the heat, etc, etc. As you wrote “the system you’re most comfortable with (ie, will make the least amount of mistakes with) is the “best” system for you”.

The end result does not obviously measure up to a full Hi/Low system implementation but from what I read from the W it seems to deliver enough to kill the HE... and that's fine with me, for now.

Counting only 2 cards (Ace, five) is as simple as it gets and no changes to the playing decisions strategy is music to my ear. But counting 4 cards instead of 2 doesn't look as a big deal more to manage and do consistently, and it may deliver more advantage to the player, above the Ace/five 0.30% to 0.57% as it should, I guess, better assess how rich in big cards the current shoe is.

The W take on Ace/five is:

- At the beginning of each shoe, start with your minimum bet, and a count of zero.
- For each five observed, add one to the count.
- For each ace observed, subtract one from the count.
- If the count is greater than or equal to two, then double your last bet, up to your maximum bet.
- If the count is less than or equal to one, then make the minimum bet.
- Use basic strategy for all playing decisions.

what if it was modified as follow:
(obviously, there may very well be better choices than FOUR, TEN, 4 and 3)

- At the beginning of each shoe, start with your minimum bet, and a count of zero.
- For each five or FOUR observed, add one to the count.
- For each ace or TEN (not the J/Q/K) observed, subtract one from the count.
- If the count is greater than or equal to 4, then double your last bet, up to your maximum bet.
- If the count is less than or equal to 3, then make the minimum bet.
- Use basic strategy for all playing decisions.

... what would it do to the advantage to the player, would it be better than 0.30% to 0.57%?

In a scenario where all the Kings and Queens are out, but not a ten has been played, you'd be betting more while at a disadvantage.
Since there are 16 ten valued cards in a deck, only tracking four can give your wrong impressions of a deck. The more decks per shoe, the wilder the swing. It would be a bit better in Spanish 21 as there is one less ten valued rank, but still strikes me as being more harmful than helpful.

Just use the K-O style, hey hey.

Quote: billryan

In a scenario where all the Kings and Queens are out, but not a ten has been played, you'd be betting more while at a disadvantage.
Since there are 16 ten valued cards in a deck, only tracking four can give your wrong impressions of a deck. The more decks per shoe, the wilder the swing. It would be a bit better in Spanish 21 as there is one less ten valued rank, but still strikes me as being more harmful than helpful.

I agree that only tracking 4 TENS out of 16 can give wrong impressions of a deck, but that's what Ace/five does already and probably even worst than my 2-big-cards tracking as the only big card it tracks is Ace, no TENS at all... and it is said by the W to provide an advantage to the player between 0.30% to 0.57% depending on the spread used... which means, I guess, that it isn't more harmful than helpful... or am I missing something?

There's a couple things here I think need clarified:

1) Are you actually trying to be a net positive with your A/5 count blackjack play?

- If so, you won't be. You need to understand all of the other concepts and the A/5 is such a weak count that you'll have a very small almost negligible advantage unless you have a large spread which is all the same for any other counting system.

- If not, then you're just playing for fun "dipping your toes" in the water so to speak while EXPECTING TO LOSE in the long run.


2) You don't need some monsterous investment to play with the Hi/Low count.

- If you're willing to play with $500 with the A/5 count, then why couldn't you use the same $500 to play with Hi/Low? In EITHER situation you're under funded, regardless of the counting system you're using... So use it as your test amount, or a replenish-able bankroll, but understand the A/5 count is NOT saving you from some "massive investment" as opposed to using Hi/Low.

3) Why are you trying to add more to the A/5 count?

- If the A/5 count is too simple for you, seriously, why not just use Hi/Low? I get this feeling you think there's a lot more to it but there really isn't. You don't have to learn any indexes at first while you "experiment" and yet you CAN still have a positive expectation winning game. Pretty much the only "index" you need to know is take insurance at TC +3 or greater (after all that index alone is HALF the value of the I18).


4) You talk about heat and not having to do anything with the A/5 count to avoid it.

- If you're spreading 1-10 it will be the exact same thing regardless of what count you're using. The A/5 count will NOT provide "cover" for you to not worry about heat. It comes down to the money on the felt, as with ANY system you must put the money out in good situations. Also, if you're playing low stakes (such as $5-$50) then you won't get any heat, anywhere, even if you were using Hi/Low or not. VERY few places sweat this kind of action (El Cortez perhaps) but for the most part if you're playing for smaller amounts again your system is erroneous.

Seriously, the amount of work you're trying to put in to the A/5 count and modifying it is probably MORE work than learning Hi/Low (even without indexes). It may seem like some mountain of a task, but it's not. Like I said prior, it's just 3 groups of cards that all blend together; you're not scrutinizing each individual card as they come out. A .5% advantage can be erased by mistakes much easier than an average 1.5%-2% advantage. Probably about 4 times as easily =P.

A very simple count is to track 4,5,6 and black 2s, . Add one each time one comes out, and subtract one for every face card.
Ignore3,7,8,9,10 and Aces. In a six deck game, begin the count at ten.
By tracking half the deuce, it eliminates the need to convert a running count to a true count. Why? Don't know and don't care.
I accept it because people with all sorts of degrees say it is so.
This is a very good beginners count. After you get it down pat, you can add other cards

To master this, Google Fred Renzey. He is the creator of this Kiss count.
What I like about it for beginners is it expands with the player. No need to learn a whole new system when you outgrow it.

Black two's ?
I suspect this is a hidden racial discrimination ideology masked as a casual Blackjack discussion.
Request immediate investigation by the Mods, and the appropriate Federal, State, and local authorities.
I PM'd the Reverand Jackson already ;-)

Thankfully, I didn't say count the Red Dueces. That would have really ruffled your feathers,eh?

Quote: billryan

Thankfully, I didn't say count the Red Dueces. That would have really ruffled your feathers,eh?

lol'd +1

Quote: billryan

Thankfully, I didn't say count the Red Dueces. That would have really ruffled your feathers,eh?

Unfortunately, it is hard to discuss black anything, or red anything, without fear of litigation. Should you be found dead on the side of the street tomorrow, with either one of them plastic 'Fro Combs' or a tomahawk stuck in your carcass, tell 'em not to come talk to me. Some black guy stole my tomahawk several days ago ;-)