Am I the only card counter that uses player's card?

Am I the only card counter to use player's card? They never tell me how much comps I'm getting. "It depends on the game, your average bet, and your time played" means nothing. There is a formula and they're not telling me.

Either way my personal experience shows that the comps as well as tier points does add up to a noticeable amount. Then again, it could be casino dependent and I'd never know how it's handled universally since casinos hide their formula.

Just wondering if I'm the only card counter to use player's card. Because obvious downside is if I'm caught card counting it's forever the end blackjack for me. Or is it? I don't see why they would let me go on this.

I'd say in Vegas, NO. Reason being you really want to hit and run, keep moving. There are some places where it makes sense to pull the spread in and log some time because the comps are worth it. This doe not tend to be the games with advantageous rule sets, usually locals places that have discretionary pit personnel or generous rating systems. There are places that I play for food.

Quote: Neutrino

if I'm caught card counting it's forever the end blackjack for me.

Why would that be? Are you only capable of playing at one place?

Quote: MaxPen

I'd say in Vegas, NO. Reason being you really want to hit and run, keep moving. There are some places where it makes sense to pull the spread in and log some time because the comps are worth it. This doe not tend to be the games with advantageous rule sets, usually locals places that have discretionary pit personnel or generous rating systems. There are places that I play for food.

Right on as usual by MaxPen. I play unrated most of the time, the exception being a couple local places, with really good mail promotions, where it is beneficial to tone down spread a bit, make sure their is plenty of machine play on my account as well, maximizing both mail offers and food comps. Has to be local type and independent places. No chains, where the loss of a property or card can mean loss of numerous properties.

Quote: Dieter

Why would that be? Are you only capable of playing at one place?

No it's because now they have your full identity and I've read that casinos share advantage player information with all other casinos in the world. I'm 22 so casino security still checks ID on entry, which the name will be a giveaway if it's on some blacklist.

Now if you're backed off unrated that's a totally different story. They can only remember your face for a few months before you can go in again and they would have no memory of your backoff.

Vegas tends to sweat people more anyway right? I assume that as just a general "tourism" phenomenon. Cities with high tourist traffic tends to have very poor customer service all over the board, simply because reputation does not affect their local business as it's catered towards people who will almost never return anyway. I see no reason for the casinos not to do this, since 86'ing random people at a local casino will get the word spread fast and customer return rate dying, but I feel like Vegas has no reason to care.

Quote: Neutrino

...There is a formula and they're not telling me...

The general formula (since every casino is free to calculate comps differently) is:

COMPS = 20% of Expected Loss.

EL = NumHands * AvgBet * HouseEdge

So let's say you play with an average bet of $25 for 5 hours, and the house knows you're getting about 80 hands per hour at their tables... You're playing a "standard" game with a .5% house advantage. One thing to note... The casinos "House Edge" is averaging everyone's play... So it's way above the .5% because most people don't even play basic strategy. I've personally seen casinos where they mark the game at 2% because of how poorly most people play. So let's say they mark it at 1% even... Your EL would be as follows:

EL = (400) * (25) * (-.01) = -$100... This is how much you could expect to lose every time you play these conditions.

Now the casino wants to "comp" you to keep you happier... So what do they do? They comp you at a rate of 20% of your own losses.

COMP = EL * .2 = 100 * .2 = $20. Thus, for your 5 hour session you've earned about $20 in comps (for a $25 avg bet). That's enough for a buffet comp.

Again, this is the generic. It depends on the casino and it depends on how they feel their players play. They might consider the HE to be 2%, or maybe they take the actual calculated HE of .5%, who knows. They could also shorten up and give you only 10% of your EL back, etc. At the end of the day, the most important thing to remember is this: They are not comping you. They are paying you back with your own money to try to keep you coming back to lose more.

For blackjack the formula is based on how they rate your play. Every rated player, playing on a card gets a rating from pit concerning play. There are 4-5 different classification, the top two being AP and skilled player. 'Skilled' player doesn't necessarily mean playing plus EV game. It can mean a good basic strategy player. Those top rated players will get back less in comps than lower rated players playing the same betting amounts. The highest rated players may get back nothing. This is often one of the first counter-measures of the casino against a suspected AP.

It should be noted that mail offers are very different than comps. In Vegas and I suspect other areas where Casinos are in competition for players, mail offers can be disproportionately higher than what you play. This is what makes some machine play among local type casino's who are in competition for the local players, a +EV exercise. We are playing for future mail offers, not that crap tiny percent of our theoretical loss that they offer in comps.

Back to blackjack though, playing for comps is a negative move now a days because the casinos give back so little on blackjack play, even to a player rated as poor player. If you are toning down your spread and playing less aggressively for comps, such as food and rooms, you are far better off playing unrated, and attacking more aggressively with full spread and paying for room and food.

Quote: Romes

They are not comping you. They are paying you back with your own money to try to keep you coming back to lose more.

... unless you won.

Thanks Rome and Kewlj

So, let's say I got a comp multiplier of 5x, and they're comping me as if I'm playing with a 1% HE (avg in Rome's model, specific in Kewlj's model)

Blackjack itself is 99.4% RTP, 1% HE * 20% * 5 = 1% back in comps. Does that mean the game that day is 100.4% RTP as it is, even without card counting?

Quote: Neutrino

Thanks Rome and Kewlj

So, let's say I got a comp multiplier of 5x, and they're comping me as if I'm playing with a 1% HE (avg in Rome's model, specific in Kewlj's model)

Blackjack itself is 99.4% RTP, 1% HE * 20% * 5 = 1% back in comps. Does that mean the game that day is 100.4% RTP as it is, even without card counting?

Glad you found the posts informative! I think you're mixing up some numbers though... As stated in my previous post they're comping you 20% of your Expected Loss. This already accounts for the "house edge" they think you're playing at (~1%).

Comp = EL * 20% = (HE*HandsPlayed*AvgBet)*20%. From my example above: EL = (400) * (25) * (-.01) = -100. If they're giving you 20% of this back, then you're getting $20 back. But you have to see how much you're getting back for how much action you're putting through...

If you play 400 hands at $25 per hand, then you had to wager $10,000 just to get $20 back. From this raw number example you're getting back .002, or .2% (not even 1%). Which would make the game go from 99.4% to 99.6% though.

What I meant is, sometimes casinos have "multipliers". For example my local Caesar's branch often has a 5x reward credit (Caesar's version of comps) for a certain day. That means, all comps earned that day, whether it is slots, table games, or video poker, is multiplied by 5.

Unfortunately the local video poker pay table is shit. And there's not a chance on +Ev on slots. But blackjack...

So my question is, if without the comp multiplier the game RTP goes from 99.4% to 99.6%, with a 5x does it go to 100.4% without card counting?

Quote: Neutrino

So my question is, if without the comp multiplier the game RTP goes from 99.4% to 99.6%, with a 5x does it go to 100.4% without card counting?

Yes, if the promo really does apply to blackjack.

You might find that the value of your time puts you over playing video poker for 2 hours instead of blackjack for 12 if the comp rates aren't the same.

Quote: Dieter

Yes, if the promo really does apply to blackjack.

You might find that the value of your time puts you over playing video poker for 2 hours instead of blackjack for 12 if the comp rates aren't the same.

Yeah I would double check you're actually getting 5x on 'all' table games, including blackjack. A lot of times they'll have these 5x days, etc, but they won't apply to certain games, such as blackjack.

Quote: Romes

A lot of times they'll have these 5x days, etc, but they won't apply to certain games, such as blackjack.

The favorite trick out here in the sticks is a point multiplier day, but only on slots - no tables, no video roulette, no video poker/video blackjack...

Read the fine print first.

Quote: Dieter

The favorite trick out here in the sticks is a point multiplier day, but only on slots - no tables, no video roulette, no video poker/video blackjack...

Read the fine print first.

The first time Motorcity had 3x point days a few years ago vp was included and they got destroyed that day. Ever since then, vp has been excluded.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The first time Motorcity had 3x point days a few years ago vp was included and they got destroyed that day. Ever since then, vp has been excluded.

Yeah. I'm sure that the casinos quickly figured out that even moderately sharp players figured out that cancellation betting on roulette machines racks up points at a ridiculous rate.

Now with Hot Roll and Ultimate X 10 line, it's just so fast to run up points for promos... but they want people to sit and play the ellen slots, so that's what they reward.

Well I specifically asked the pit boss of table games, and he said it indeed applies to table games.

Furthermore there is no "fine print", I looked carefully.

Nonetheless this doesn't mean I believe what he's saying. After all, he can lie all day long right? As long as he's not liable for his words there's nothing stopping him from lying.

So then my question becomes, how do I check if it is actually 5x on table games or not? (assuming asking gets you nowhere)

Quote: Neutrino

how do I check if it is actually 5x on table games or not? (assuming asking gets you nowhere)

You would need a way to see what your comps balance is before your play is credited, a way to see your comps balance after your play has been credited, and a reference value for what comps you get for a given amount of play.

From there, subtraction.

I generally tell tourists to expect about one average bet back for every four hours of play. That is an easy way for most people to remember.

There is no exact formula but the casinos I have worked with expect more than 1% win for a typical player. The tracking system I programmed a long time ago used up to 2% for players rated as a low skill level. I believe the other settings were 1.5% for a typical player and .75% for a good player.

I usually will play a little while and see how the heat is. If there's not much heat I ask for players card. If there's alot of heat I dont. Also sometimes different shifts will give you more heat than others. If I already have a card but a particular shift is watching my play more closely I won't use my players card. I also never hand the players card right when I sit down. I wait until I've hit a true count +3 and raised my bet a bit to assess how much heat there is. If there's not much heat I'll act like I forgot to give them my players card before and give it to them then. If they seem to be watching me a bit closely I'll just keep my card in my pocket in case I get backed off they won't have my info.

I have been using players cards lately. I get a lot of free hotel room mailings in my mailbox, promotional chips, and free meals. However, for the first time in nearly 400 hours, I was 86ed from a Casino in Louisiana. Guess I can never gamble again at one of those places now. So to your last point, I think it is a valid concern. Luckily this was a small chain rather than a major one...