blackjack-questions on how to buy others' hand to play

in casinos (maybe Macao), i always see stupid plays like:
blackjack vs dealer's 10. even money.
99 vs 6 no split.
8 vs 7 double
16V7 surrender
13V10, surrender, there are really a lot on this.
A7 v 5,6, stand, 98%, for this, i don't even have time to buy, very likely.

i met an Italian last month in wynn, play usd, 00 per hand, he got 77, dealer's 3, he wanted to stop. i repeat, 7 is better card than 3,(maybe still because 14 is too bad?) , he did. then an A, he stopped without hesitation, then another A , still stayed... also he was buying pairs almost all hands at USD200.

i have a small calculation on AJ vs 10, if player wants to take even money(10% players will do), can buy it at 2.3 times
it is like this: he bets 1 units, i give him 2.3 units to get this hand.
then invest 2.3 units.
by 1/13 chance, i lost 2.3 nits, it is -2.3/13,
by 12/13 chance, i win 0.2 Unit, it is +2.4%
is it right? if right, by reality will try to buy it at 2.1 times.

for A7 VS 6, can i buy it at 1.2 times then double down?

here i then really want to know what the strategy is to buy those hands. is it all right i buy these hands which are against basic strategy? or what are important buyings by order?

maybe it is hard to sum up the buying strategies in full.

but i really hope some one could do it.

because in the forum, most are maths oriented. they want to win in the casinos. this buying is not a way to win casino? at the same time, it helps the normal players if we buy their hands better than what dealer offers.

so it is decent to buy.

in end, anyone who can answer it by a full chart, i would say: wow, you are as smart as wizard.

Blackjack Attack edition #3 by Don Schlesinger -- in the back of the book, there are VALUE charts. Actually, I think there are also VALUE charts on wizardofodds.com (not wizardofvegas.com!).

Basically, the chart will show you what the expected value of a hand is. If you can memorize those values, at least the common ones, and can buy someone's hand for less than that value -- you're making money.

But be careful -- if you buy someone's soft-18 vs 6 and double-down and everyone loses....people aren't going to be too happy with you! Not that you should necessarily care if people like or dislike you at the table, but, when people dislike you, bad things can happen -- perhaps you buy someone's hand in the future and all is good until...the hand wins -- the guy takes the money for himself and basically tells you to F*** off!

I don't know gaming regulations and how this stuff works out in Macau, but in the US [well at least in Nevada], whoever is playing the hand [the original player] the money belongs to him, even if he sells it off to someone else. If he sells it off, it's up to the original player to whether or not he wants to be "honest" and give the money to the guy who already paid for the hand.


Buying these hands are called vulture plays (usually that's what they're called, at least). This can be dangerous, because sometimes people tell you to F*** OFF and they don't give you the money you deserve. Proceed with caution!

The term I've always heard is 'scavenger plays', which is very close to 'vulture plays'. :/

A couple problems with these plays. One, which RS mentioned is what seems like an a clear understanding by both players, often turns into an issue. I can't tell you how many times I have seen someone 'buy' someone's double down and then after hand wins, the original player only gives the scavenger player back the double down amount, not the double down amount plus win, as if it was a loan and not a purchase of the hand. Here in Nevada, a misunderstanding like this (or often more likely intentional on the part of original player) has little recourse for scavenger player, as casino, dealers and pit will not get involved.

The second issue is that if you are doing any kind of APing, like card counting where you wish to draw as little attention as possible, well, this is a huge 'attention getter'. Money/chips exchanging hands at the table is exactly the kind of thing surveillance is required to notice, just to be sure nothing shady is occurring. So as a card counter, I have to weigh if it is worth it or not. (that means significant EV). I am not going to offer to buy someone's $10 split that might be worth a dollar or two.

Quote: RS

Blackjack Attack edition #3 by Don Schlesinger -- in the back of the book, there are VALUE charts. Actually, I think there are also VALUE charts on wizardofodds.com (not wizardofvegas.com!).

Basically, the chart will show you what the expected value of a hand is. If you can memorize those values, at least the common ones, and can buy someone's hand for less than that value -- you're making money.

But be careful -- if you buy someone's soft-18 vs 6 and double-down and everyone loses....people aren't going to be too happy with you! Not that you should necessarily care if people like or dislike you at the table, but, when people dislike you, bad things can happen -- perhaps you buy someone's hand in the future and all is good until...the hand wins -- the guy takes the money for himself and basically tells you to F*** off!

I don't know gaming regulations and how this stuff works out in Macau, but in the US [well at least in Nevada], whoever is playing the hand [the original player] the money belongs to him, even if he sells it off to someone else. If he sells it off, it's up to the original player to whether or not he wants to be "honest" and give the money to the guy who already paid for the hand.


Buying these hands are called vulture plays (usually that's what they're called, at least). This can be dangerous, because sometimes people tell you to F*** OFF and they don't give you the money you deserve. Proceed with caution!

thanks for the info, i will check wizardofodds later.
by buying, i guess they dont' care if i lose or win, because he gets money already. maybe they would rather i lose, then he will cheer his innerself.

for the caution, i think it is right. i watched amercian movie, knowing f... is so common. and they are kinds of persons like this. in Macao, the Asian is ok in this aspect. i did it some times. like 10 V 6, i double it for them. 70% times, i will win. but all the time, i forgot to buy it: AJ V 10, the dealer even asks. then the player wants even money. i should say, i pay 1.1 to buy it, they will be happy.

maybe i need to say: this one only applies to Macao and you have friends, the others are alone. and the other are in good talks firstly.

Quote: kewlj

The term I've always heard is 'scavenger plays', which is very close to 'vulture plays'. :/

A couple problems with these plays. One, which RS mentioned is what seems like an a clear understanding by both players, often turns into an issue. I can't tell you how many times I have seen someone 'buy' someone's double down and then after hand wins, the original player only gives the scavenger player back the double down amount, not the double down amount plus win, as if it was a loan and not a purchase of the hand. Here in Nevada, a misunderstanding like this (or often more likely intentional on the part of original player) has little recourse for scavenger player, as casino, dealers and pit will not get involved.

The second issue is that if you are doing any kind of APing, like card counting where you wish to draw as little attention as possible, well, this is a huge 'attention getter'. Money/chips exchanging hands at the table is exactly the kind of thing surveillance is required to notice, just to be sure nothing shady is occurring. So as a card counter, I have to weigh if it is worth it or not. (that means significant EV). I am not going to offer to buy someone's $10 split that might be worth a dollar or two.

thanks, if not in Macao, then i guess i will never do it then.
in Macao, even strange,

one i have 10, VS dealer's 4 or what, i have no enough money to double down, nobody is helping, they just don't know it is a good chance.
another time, i have 88, dealer is 5, i have no money to split. nobody wants to help...
so this is macao, this is how most of us are playing Bj.

if we just are to be math-oriented:

For what it's worth, I've never had any issue on any scavenger play ever. I just firmly announce the amount they owe after the win. No argument 100% of the time.

On the other hand, I have had people offer to RETURN my bet after the wager loses. I have to decline that. Maybe it's a Midwest nice thing?

thanks for the info, i will check wizardofodds later.
by buying, i guess they dont' care if i lose or win, because he gets money already. maybe they would rather i lose, then he will cheer his innerself.

for the caution, i think it is right. i watched amercian movie, knowing f... is so common. and they are kinds of persons like this. in Macao, the Asian is ok in this aspect. i did it some times. like 10 V 6, i double it for them. 70% times, i will win. but all the time, i forgot to buy it: AJ V 10, the dealer even asks. then the player wants even money. i should say, i pay 1.1 to buy it, they will be happy.

maybe i need to say: this one only applies to Macao and you have friends, the others are alone. and the other are in good talks firstly.

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You play in Macau.
Surely you mean BJ vs A. Then even money is offered. Almost all would take even money. You would just buy over the hand by giving them 2x their bet. If you give them 1.1x the winning bet then you have overpaid them. The HA for not taking even money instead of fighting is 1.076.
I know it is a good buy but sometimes for various reasons I would not bother to do so.

You don't need to offer any extra on even money. Just offer what they'd get ($20 on a $20 bj) and tell them this: "dealer bj, keep your bet plus what I gave you. No dealer bj, keep your bet and pay me the winnings ($30)". Never once had an issue and all players seem happy to oblige.

Quote: Deck007

thanks for the info, i will check wizardofodds later.
by buying, i guess they dont' care if i lose or win, because he gets money already. maybe they would rather i lose, then he will cheer his innerself.

for the caution, i think it is right. i watched amercian movie, knowing f... is so common. and they are kinds of persons like this. in Macao, the Asian is ok in this aspect. i did it some times. like 10 V 6, i double it for them. 70% times, i will win. but all the time, i forgot to buy it: AJ V 10, the dealer even asks. then the player wants even money. i should say, i pay 1.1 to buy it, they will be happy.

maybe i need to say: this one only applies to Macao and you have friends, the others are alone. and the other are in good talks firstly.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



You play in Macau.
Surely you mean BJ vs A. Then even money is offered. Almost all would take even money. You would just buy over the hand by giving them 2x their bet. If you give them 1.1x the winning bet then you have overpaid them. The HA for not taking even money instead of fighting is 1.076.
I know it is a good buy but sometimes for various reasons I would not bother to do so.

if BJ V A, i wouldn't buy either. and i wouldn't even mention it. it is BJ V 10. then it is strange. then i would buy it.

Quote: teddys

For what it's worth, I've never had any issue on any scavenger play ever. I just firmly announce the amount they owe after the win. No argument 100% of the time.

On the other hand, I have had people offer to RETURN my bet after the wager loses. I have to decline that. Maybe it's a Midwest nice thing?

yes, what is a nice thing.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

You don't need to offer any extra on even money. Just offer what they'd get ($20 on a $20 bj) and tell them this: "dealer bj, keep your bet plus what I gave you. No dealer bj, keep your bet and pay me the winnings ($30)". Never once had an issue and all players seem happy to oblige.

wow, i need some thinking on this math. the player is so fast? maybe he just doesn't figure out what is going on.
...

it is the same then.

like last reply: it is really BJ vs 10. surelly i would pay extra if needed.. and in Macao, if no extra, 90% players would deal with the casion rather than me, because they trust casino much more.