First Time Counter

Hi all, I am planning on counting cards for the first time in a live casino sometime in the next few months. I would like to know how experienced players usually behave when counting, especially when Wonging. I was considering using a conservative low-key approach with a 1:5 bet spread, bet table minimum at TC <= +1 and bet 5x at TC >= +2. However, doing things such as Wonging in and out and sitting out a couple of hands is more desirable but are more likely to get you caught.

So I want to ask everyone how they get away with more aggressive strategies when Wonging in?

1) Do you just play until the count goes low again? Problem with this is that card counters want a high hand volume, and if you jump ship to another table at the same casino, it looks suspicious.

2) Do you play for a while at this table now that you have sat down?

3) How do you make excuses for sitting out a couple of hands when the count is low? How many hands do you usually sit out for if it stays low?

4) Also on a side, people say that when you get caught by pit boss you should just take your chips and leave, don't cash out on the same day. I know you want to avoid trouble, but what if this isn't an option since you are leaving town the next day? Is it worth the risk to cash out on the same day or is it better to keep your chips until you make another trip to the casino, perhaps in a year?

Thanks all.

I don't count but I thought you ramp up slowing when count is in your favor?
ie: 2x, 4x, 8x? instead of 1x -> 5x instantly?

what count method are you using?

Quote: ArtooDetoo

Hi all, I am planning on counting cards for the first time in a live casino sometime in the next few months. I would like to know how experienced players usually behave when counting, especially when Wonging. I was considering using a conservative low-key approach with a 1:5 bet spread, bet table minimum at TC <= +1 and bet 5x at TC >= +2. However, doing things such as Wonging in and out and sitting out a couple of hands is more desirable but are more likely to get you caught.

So I want to ask everyone how they get away with more aggressive strategies when Wonging in?

1) Do you just play until the count goes low again? Problem with this is that card counters want a high hand volume, and if you jump ship to another table at the same casino, it looks suspicious.

2) Do you play for a while at this table now that you have sat down?

3) How do you make excuses for sitting out a couple of hands when the count is low? How many hands do you usually sit out for if it stays low?

4) Also on a side, people say that when you get caught by pit boss you should just take your chips and leave, don't cash out on the same day. I know you want to avoid trouble, but what if this isn't an option since you are leaving town the next day? Is it worth the risk to cash out on the same day or is it better to keep your chips until you make another trip to the casino, perhaps in a year?

Thanks all.

Hey r2d2, glad to hear you're about ready to implement a winning strategy for blackjack =). I have a few questions of my own, as well as I'll answer your questions to the best of my ability...

My questions (without looking at the following spoiler): Can you tell me the House Edge, and your Hourly EV (given your betting strategy above) of the game you're going to play?



***If you could not give me these numbers, then (in my opinion) you are not ready to count in a casino. You should never think you have a winning game, you must know you have a winning game before stepping foot in a casino. To see how to get these numbers and answer some of your questions as well, please check out my A to Z Counting Cards in Blackjack thread.

Your questions are very dependent on your situation. If you're just doing this for fun/part time, then you need to look at your available options in the area. Is it going to hurt/kill your game to get burned at this place? What limits are you playing? Thus how much sweat are you going to get (red chips vs green chips vs black chips)?

1) I play through whole shoes unless the TC < -1, then I sit out with one of a million different reasons.
2) In Vegas, I keep my sessions short and move on once I've exposed my max bet. At my home casinos I usually 'camp out' a little bit more but still sit out when TC < -1.
3) Oh, experience will give you infinite reasons... Pull your phone out and when they say "no phones" stand up and make a fake call or call someone and walk 5-10 feet away from the table (if you still want to keep counting). Go to the bathroom. Say you're going to check on how your wife/gf/friend(s) are doing. Say you've lost too many hands in a row so you're gonna make yourself sit out so you can bleed your money slower... There's really a ton of reasons that every normal ploppies use that you can also use.
4) If you're playing on the same day you're leaving I'd still just grab my chips and walk out and try again in a couple hours (possibly on a shift change). If you're leaving in like 1 hour then just go to the cage to cash out (unless you're getting a crazy amount of heat and they want to backroom you). If they're getting too crazy just leave. Have a friend or someone else cash the chips in for you. If this is absolutely not an option, then just cash them yourself. They, by law, can't stop you from cashing your chips or leaving (though most casinos will give you BS like "we need your ID to cash your chips" etc).

Wonging can indeed be a lot more profitable, but at the same time it can draw a LOT more attention, and it can also be a LOT more boring on nights where you just find negative count after negative count. When you see my thread you can see the "gain per hand" breakdown. Then you can see just how much 0 counts and -1 true counts are actually costing you, PER HAND. You can tweak your spread to eliminate these negative gain per hands and thus simply by betting x more at TC +3 you can then afford to play down to TC -1 and you won't draw so much attention wonging...

This is all highly subjective to why you're playing and where you're playing though. If you're trying to go PRO, then I could double or triple the amount of information in this response. Could you elaborate a bit more on what type of player you are (recreational, weekend/part time counter, or trying to go pro)? Are you familiar with your bankroll requirements for your spread/game? What is your bankroll? Are you open to changing your spread? What level (red/green/black) chips are you playing at?

All of these questions will help dictate how to maximize your EV, and I'd be willing to help you do that if you can answer them.

Quote: 100xOdds

I don't count but I thought you ramp up slowing when count is in your favor?
ie: 2x, 4x, 8x? instead of 1x -> 5x instantly?

what count method are you using?

I'm using basic Hi-Lo with I18+F4. I'm going straight from 1x to 5x because I've learned that TC +2 is where the money starts coming in:

http://www.blackjackgeeks.com/cardcounting/betting.php

So since my bet spread is small, I'm planning on just shooting straight for it anyways. I'm figuring that at $10 tables, I shouldn't get too much heat.

Quote: Romes

My questions (without looking at the following spoiler): Can you tell me the House Edge, and your Hourly EV (given your betting strategy above) of the game you're going to play?

Thanks a lot Romes, your post was very helpful. FWIW, I'm not actually planning on playing a lot in casinos, I'm really just a recreational player. I've only been to live casinos 5 times in my life, one of those was a short 10 minute session on a cruise, and the other 4 were with friends. Every time we go, I play my friends' hands for them since I know basic strategy cold and they don't. I'm planning on going again in a couple of months to AC with my friends, and I felt that since I knew basic strategy cold, it doesn't hurt to start learning how to count cards. But if I'm going to count cards and still play my friends' hands for them, I'm going to need a lot of practice first. Honestly I don't think I'll get enough practice in before we go to AC, but it's better than flatting minimum and it doesn't hurt since I really do know basic strategy cold. If I lose track I'll just flat minimum.

So I was going to practice at home and then go to the local casino here in Maryland by myself first to sharpen my skills. I've never been to a casino in Maryland, but from what I've heard, Horseshoe Casino is the best bet, with 8 decks, S17, late surrender, and the other usual DOA, DAS, etc. I've heard penetration is decent, around 80-85%. House edge for this game is approximately 0.38%. I honestly don't know the hourly EV or how to calculate it with 1:5 bet spread, but using your sample post of the Kelly Criterion with 90.05 hands, I calculate an hourly EV of around $7.53 with 80 hands/hour. Horseshoe Casino is also where I would go should I get more serious about counting cards. I know my bankroll should ideally be $5000, but I'll probably take $1000 each time I go.

Then I'd be going to AC with my friends, where the $10 tables are terrible on the boardwalk, 8 decks, H17, no surrender, I think around 0.67% house edge, and the EV I believe is actually negative with my basic betting strategy. It'll just be a day trip, and I don't have the bankroll to play $25 games where the rules are better, so we will just mess around at the $10 tables. Of course, this would mean no sitting out or Wonging. Terrible ROR, but as always, trips we take just for fun. I'll be taking at most $1000 for this trip as well.

I guess what I'm saying is my questions are more out of curiosity should I take my game to the next level. I know it's well too early to be thinking about Wonging right now since I've never even counted in a casino yet, but they're things I want to consider should the time come.

Wow, to be honest I must say you're attacking this completely how you should... You just don't know what you don't know, of course. I sense a great counter in you young padawan, but you must be willing to embrace the force, I mean counting, with all of its aspects if you're going to have any kind of success past luck.

Quote: ArtooDetoo

I'm using basic Hi-Lo with I18+F4...
Thanks a lot Romes, your post was very helpful. FWIW, I'm not actually planning on playing a lot in casinos, I'm really just a recreational player. I've only been to live casinos 5 times in my life, one of those was a short 10 minute session on a cruise, and the other 4 were with friends. Every time we go, I play my friends' hands for them since I know basic strategy cold and they don't. I'm planning on going again in a couple of months to AC with my friends, and I felt that since I knew basic strategy cold, it doesn't hurt to start learning how to count cards. But if I'm going to count cards and still play my friends' hands for them, I'm going to need a lot of practice first. Honestly I don't think I'll get enough practice in before we go to AC, but it's better than flatting minimum and it doesn't hurt since I really do know basic strategy cold. If I lose track I'll just flat minimum.

Excellent start and reasoning most people get in to counting. Counting isn't very hard, but putting it all together and dealing with the distractions can be. I've found playing other people's hands (friends, people asking for advice, etc) isn't very hard. Just stick to basic strategy for them, and if you really want to feed them index plays that might be hard. Be careful with this too. If you sit at a table and it's very obvious you know basic 100%, the dealer or PB might be curious as to why you're telling your friends to double that 9 vs 7... You don't want to let them know you know basic 100%, because they'll wonder why you're not using it then. I often say "I mostly stick to basic, but since that doesn't even win you gotta go with your gut sometimes!" Again, experience will give you plenty of reasons (even though you don't need to justify your play to anyone ever).

Quote: ArtooDetoo

So I was going to practice at home and then go to the local casino here in Maryland by myself first to sharpen my skills. I've never been to a casino in Maryland, but from what I've heard, Horseshoe Casino is the best bet, with 8 decks, S17, late surrender, and the other usual DOA, DAS, etc. I've heard penetration is decent, around 80-85%. House edge for this game is approximately 0.38%. I honestly don't know the hourly EV or how to calculate it with 1:5 bet spread, but using your sample post of the Kelly Criterion with 90.05 hands, I calculate an hourly EV of around $7.53 with 80 hands/hour. Horseshoe Casino is also where I would go should I get more serious about counting cards. I know my bankroll should ideally be $5000, but I'll probably take $1000 each time I go.

.38% is a good game, and one of the best you'll find in the country for $10. Also, I believe it's .38 for 6 deck and .40 for 8 deck, if memory in this scenario serves me correctly. This, by the way, means you become profitable at TC +1. When I play rules like your own (.4 or less) I up my bet at TC +1. Usually it's just double the min, but it's a good way to get a little bit extra EV and start your ramp with a simple step up no one will bat an eye at. I hope you're also figuring full play with your 80 hands/hour. By yourself you probably won't be able to get near that just wonging purely at TC +2 or greater. Fun side note btw... TC +3 is actually one of the bigger jumps in EV because of not only the advantage, but the frequencies in which the TC's occur. TC +4 has a bigger advantage but because TC +3 happens more often than TC +4 it's actually much more profitable. TC +3 is the moneymaker, in my opinion. This is also when you start getting in to a lot more index plays too.

Quote: ArtooDetoo

Then I'd be going to AC with my friends, where the $10 tables are terrible on the boardwalk, 8 decks, H17, no surrender, I think around 0.67% house edge, and the EV I believe is actually negative with my basic betting strategy. It'll just be a day trip, and I don't have the bankroll to play $25 games where the rules are better, so we will just mess around at the $10 tables. Of course, this would mean no sitting out or Wonging. Terrible ROR, but as always, trips we take just for fun. I'll be taking at most $1000 for this trip as well.

You can play these crappy boardwalk games too, if your friends demand it, but all it would require is you changing upping your bet from TC +1 to TC +2. You actually won't have very bad RoR per trip taking $1k each time if your big bet is $50. Yes, you should have $5k (or sim the game to get an exact bankroll) but don't forget counters don't take their entire bankroll on every trip. You take a trip bankroll, which in your case would be 20% of your overall bankroll. $1k should do fairly well with your betting structure as it sits now.

Quote: ArtooDetoo

I guess what I'm saying is my questions are more out of curiosity should I take my game to the next level. I know it's well too early to be thinking about Wonging right now since I've never even counted in a casino yet, but they're things I want to consider should the time come.

Yes, yes, and yes. Always be curious. Always ask the questions. It sounds like you have a good base knowledge of what you need to do and most of what you're missing is experience. However, I implore you to still read my thread I posted previously. It should definitely fill in a LOT of the little gaps you're having right now. You are the prime candidate for why I made the thread. After reading (and re-reading) it you should easily be able to see how I came up with the EV, and you should be able to do it too, as well as play with your spread to find what works best for your bankroll/games.

You shouldn't get any heat at the level you're playing and what you're betting. My only suggestions would be the following:
1) Either play through whole shoes down to TC -1, or if you have 4 friends just "watch" them with green chips in your pocket and ever now and then play the drunk friend that has a "hunch" and tell them to let you bet with them.
2) Simply change your spread from $10-$50, to TC < +1 = $10, TC +1 = $30, TC >+1 = $60. Doing just that small tweak will earn you as much as you would have made if you PURELY Wonged at TC +2 with $50. See what I mean about adding $10 here or $20 there and now you're playing an entirely different game where you're not wonging and own't have any heat from that? =)... Do note this is still only making about $10/hour, so you're not going to be rolling in the dough by any means. I hope you realize that too... When you count, it's a slow grind with a lotttt of ups and downs. I talk a lot more about this in my thead.

How many trips a year would you do this? How much would you be willing to commit? I.e. if you and your friends go on 5 trips, and the first 4 you lose your $1,000, are you then willing to go on the 5th trip with another $1,000? If so, you're theoretical bankroll is $5k already. You don't have to have all $5k on hand to play, you just have to be willing to go that deep if needed. Thus, you can treat your current game as though you have a $5k bankroll. Past this, are you willing to commit more? If you are willing to play on a theoretical bankroll of $10k, then you can start making some money by at least spreading 1-10... in which I would use:
TC < +1 = $10
TC +1 = $30
TC + 2 = $60
TC +3 = $80
TC >= +4 = $100

This would be an hourly EV of: $15.36, or 150% of what you're looking to make now. This all becomes much easier once you build up to quarters... and you can start making some good EV money.

Anyways, good luck to you. I think you're on a good path and hope you keep following it through. Feel free to post any questions in this or the other thread, as well as PM me if you want.

Thanks again Romes, your replies are all very helpful.

Since I'll be playing my friends' hands, I can't really backcount since then the dealer will wonder why I'm not playing with them and I can't really act drunk. If we do leave at TC -1, should we casino jump to another casino or to another table? I feel like jumping to another table is dangerous and jumping to another casino may be a long walk.

As I've said, we are all very recreational, we only go once a year if that. I'm by far the most serious gambler in our group (other than poker), and that's only because I really actually like the casino games. I've played a lot of play money casino games online. I know Borgata usually has the best blackjack games but we like the boardwalk since all the other casinos are there and it's very relaxing considering the view/food/other entertainment.

Quote: ArtooDetoo

Thanks again Romes, your replies are all very helpful.

Since I'll be playing my friends' hands, I can't really backcount since then the dealer will wonder why I'm not playing with them and I can't really act drunk. If we do leave at TC -1, should we casino jump to another casino or to another table? I feel like jumping to another table is dangerous and jumping to another casino may be a long walk.

Who said you have to leave? =)... Especially with the minimal heat you should get at the red chip level, just sit out, go to the bathroom, or take a phone call... don't even give up your seat! Now if you're playing heads up with the dealer, or all of your friends want to sit out, then yes, you'd have to travel to another table or another pit. Usually when I play down to TC -1, I just sit out for one of the reasons listed above. If the count gets worse I just say something like "eh I'll wait till the end of the shoe instead, that'll give me time to get a drink (or something)!" Then start fresh.

Quote: ArtooDetoo

As I've said, we are all very recreational, we only go once a year if that. I'm by far the most serious gambler in our group (other than poker), and that's only because I really actually like the casino games. I've played a lot of play money casino games online. I know Borgata usually has the best blackjack games but we like the boardwalk since all the other casinos are there and it's very relaxing considering the view/food/other entertainment.

Very well, you should be fine with the minimal spread I listed (10-60). You can even play all the way through the shoes (down to TC -1) this way too, so you'll get to play more. I would still implore you to read the thread simply because it'll provide you with the information you can then choose to implement or be contempt with at least being aware of. If you cared enough to post on these forums, you'll like the information =).

Now you'll have to give us a trip report the next time you guys go!

Are you concerned with not being able to count when you're making an excuse to sit out though? Do you prefer trying to make an excuse to sit out while still at the table such as saying that you're tired or you want to change the flow of the cards?

Quote: ArtooDetoo

Are you concerned with not being able to count when you're making an excuse to sit out though? Do you prefer trying to make an excuse to sit out while still at the table such as saying that you're tired or you want to change the flow of the cards?

I'm not sure if you're saying I'm concerned about 'losing' the count while having a conversation, or if I'm concerned about losing the count for the shoe if I go to the bathroom, so I'll address them both =p.

1) Losing the count during the conversation/excuses to sit out: This shouldn't happen if you've practiced enough. Anyone who's put in the proper practice can look at a card table and have the count in one second. When you practice, you should be doing so with the TV on, playing numerous hands with real chips, payouts, etc, and hopefully you have someone to deal to you that will have a conversation with you as well. This is all pointed out in my thread too. After proper practice, there's really nothing the casino can throw at you that would make you lose the count =). In fact, when it comes to cover, I invite conversations from the pit and try to chat them up. I subscribe to the theory that I'm counting this game because to some extent it's fun. It's not my full time profession and I enjoy doing it. Thus, I'm going to enjoy myself while I play by having conversations with the other players/pit/etc. If for some random unknown reason you happen to lose the count you can either a) approximate and always round down, or b) if you lose it all together then just either stay out the rest of the shoe or flat bet.

2) Losing the count when going to the bathroom is no big deal either. You're leaving because the count at the table is horrible. This does happen to suck when you're in the beginning of the shoe and sometimes I might play 1 more round just to see if it bounces back or not. When it's bad enough that you're going to go to the bathroom (TC < -1) then who cares about it anyways. You will really have to go to the bathroom throughout the night, I just usually wait for a bad shoe to go to the bathroom anyways =p. Try to time your bathroom break so you come back at the end of the shoe so you can start fresh on the next one. I've found myself watching a craps point or two while waiting for the shoe to deal so I don't have to sit at the table and constantly get asked by the dealer if I'm "in" or not.

The flow of the cards is another great ploppy excuse to wong BOTH in and out! If I'm sitting out and the count ramps back the other direction and is actually TC +2 or more, I'll either just hop in if I think there will be no recourse, or if the table is a very "flow of the cards" table I'll simply wait for a round where the dealer gets a good hand and beats most of them. Then I'll say "That's no good, I'll change up the flow so hopefully we can take their 20's!" and hop on in.

In my experiences I've found that people who don't know how to play the game often say very stupid things... but they never seem to argue with stupid things, so just say something silly then do what you want. Just don't look like you're trying to "sell it" though!

Thanks a lot again Romes for your help, you've been a great help to give me confidence to count!

I was wondering, the one thing I think I'm not confident on practicing is estimating the number of decks in the discard tray. I know people have said to buy decks and practice, but I'm not entirely confident on this method. Are there tricks such as assuming the middle of the discard tray is the middle of the shoe, i.e., 4 decks for 8-deck shoes and 3 decks for 6-deck shoes?

Quote: ArtooDetoo

Thanks a lot again Romes for your help, you've been a great help to give me confidence to count!

I was wondering, the one thing I think I'm not confident on practicing is estimating the number of decks in the discard tray. I know people have said to buy decks and practice, but I'm not entirely confident on this method. Are there tricks such as assuming the middle of the discard tray is the middle of the shoe, i.e., 4 decks for 8-deck shoes and 3 decks for 6-deck shoes?

No problem! I've seen some of your other posts in other threads too. I do think you have a good potential in you to be an AP. You seem to look at things from the right angle already =).

There are many things that can help you with your "deck estimation." First, a lot of sites actually sell discard trays that you can put decks in and learn how much 1, 2, 4, etc, decks look like. Here's some training tools (discard tray included) from Blackjack Apprenticeship:

http://blackjack-apprenticeship.myshopify.com/collections/training-tools

You can also find just the discard trays themselves for any number of decks via google:

https://www.google.com/search?q=blackjack+discard+trays&oq=blackjack+discard+trays&aqs=chrome..69i57.3247j0j1&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=blackjack+discard+trays&tbm=shop

Also, when I was practicing, I noticed a deck of cards was a little smaller than the size of my finger between my two joints (so a bit less than an inch). Getting decks and practicing will absolutely work. You'll be amazed at how well your eyes/brain can perceive things one you tell them to look for them. Mark off 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 decks on the discard tray. Then, put one deck in, two decks in, etc, and take not of how full the tray looks. Trust me, this doesn't take a lot of time to get used to. Just practicing for an hour you should be "close enough." throw in a little more practice and you'll be spot on in no time.

An easy tip I can give you is definitely learn where the "50%" line is. You should be able to look at a discard tray and know if you're over or under 50% of the cards. This alone can get you generally within half a deck. Though at the end of a shoe is when these half decks are most important.

You can also practice by learning how much one deck is another way. Get two decks and combine them. Then take a cut card and TRY to cut off just one deck exactly. You'll notice when you do this at first you'll be within +-5-6 cards either way. After a dozen times you'll be within +-3-4 cards either way... This does a couple things for you. This helps you practice learning the size of 1 deck (as to estimate how many of those are in the discard tray) and this also helps teach you how to cut right where you want, which can be quite handy in other AP situations ;).

Lastly, be careful! I've been to some casinos that use 8 deck discard trays and only deal 6 decks... You need to see how full the discard tray is when all of the cards are in it right before they shuffle. Sometimes even 6 deck trays have a 1 inch gap above all the cards. So take note of your surroundings and then proceed with your calculations.