Dealer Basic Strategy Advice

My buddies were playing 2 deck pitch and I was watching the play and an A-7 showed up against a dealer 2 and I said, "Good doubler over on the shoe game". And the dealer said, "No way; double 3-6 and hit 9-A". Then the question came up of whether or not a double on a dealer 6 with A-8 was good and he disagrees with that play as well.

I got my basic strategy advice from the wizards H17 chart since my local casino only offers H17, 6-deck, DAS, RSA, DA, and no surrender. So i looked at the chart for S17 and it looks like thats where he was getting his playing strategy from.

So should I heed the dealers advice for those plays even though its a H17 game or keep playing Wizards strategy?

I've never heard of a dealer that knew basic strategy perfectly for the game they were dealing.

Use the Wizard's charts - they're correct.

In this case, specifically, you double A7 vs 2 and A8 vs 6 if it was a two deck game for basic strategy.

That being said the EV of doubling instead of just hitting on those two plays is very similar and index to from double to hit at around TC -1 for DD.

Quote: Donuts

I've never heard of a dealer that knew basic strategy perfectly for the game they were dealing.

From what I can tell, most dealers have learned strategy from the mistake card in the gift shop.

Quote: Dieter

From what I can tell, most dealers have learned strategy from the mistake card in the gift shop.

I think its just pattern recognition/confirmation bias for a lot of them. They seem to make the correct play based on intuition as opposed to math.

Examples:
Not hitting 12 v 2 / 12 v 3 since the dealer "should" bust.
Not Doubling A8 v 6 since you already have a good hand.
Always taking even money since its guaranteed profit.

"that being said the ev of doubling instead of just hitting on those two plays is very similar and index to from double to hit at around tc -1 for dd."

So both plays have indices at -1 for dd? How bout six deck? Since I can double any first two cards and only 10 and 11 in dd.

Pretty sure the HE for my six deck game is higher than the dd but like playing it at a full table.

This is very common. Even at my local shop all they offer on the main floor is H17... Yet ALL of the dealers were taught S17 strategy. Casinos do this because they don't want players playing perfectly. This is also why they often sell the wrong BS card in the gift shop (my local shop does this as well... sells S17 basic strategy cards and offers H17 games).

Basic strategy changes depending on the house rules. The number of decks is a "rule" that must be considered, as it can change the strategy.

A-8 doubles vs 6 in a H17 game off the top, where as it doubles at +1 in a S17 game.

You should ALWAYS follow the Wizards strategy, so long as you plugged in the proper information.

Quote: Romes

This is very common. Even at my local shop all they offer on the main floor is H17... Yet ALL of the dealers were taught S17 strategy. Casinos do this because they don't want players playing perfectly. This is also why they often sell the wrong BS card in the gift shop (my local shop does this as well... sells S17 basic strategy cards and offers H17 games).

I find it mind-boggling that casinos would do this. Where I work, we were taught the correct strategy chart from Wizard, and we were told in no uncertain terms that we were not allowed to give any advice that wasn't on that chart. If we ever don't know the correct answer, we're supposed to call the floor, and the pit boss will look it up.

The reason being they don't want players saying "Hey! The dealer told me to stay on my 12 against that 2! I want a refund!" It seems to me that purposely feeding bad advice to the players is a liability waiting to happen.

I don't think dealers are purposely feeding players bad advice.

I believe dealers are just trying to be helpful, even though they are often wrong.

Dealers often politely criticize many correct plays. They tell me I'm a crazy gambler for doubling 11 vs A, A8 vs 6, etc. And then, tell me I should "gamble" instead of surrendering my hand. They're just clueless.

Quote: HowMany

I don't think dealers are purposely feeding players bad advice.

I believe dealers are just trying to be helpful, even though they are often wrong.

Dealers often politely criticize many correct plays. They tell me I'm a crazy gambler for doubling 11 vs A, A8 vs 6, etc. And then, tell me I should "gamble" instead of surrendering my hand. They're just clueless.

A dealer once told me if I stopped surrendering my 16 v 10s, that I would see that I could win at least 5 out of 10 times. That sounds like good odds to me.

Quote: HowMany

I don't think dealers are purposely feeding players bad advice.

I believe dealers are just trying to be helpful, even though they are often wrong.

Dealers often politely criticize many correct plays. They tell me I'm a crazy gambler for doubling 11 vs A, A8 vs 6, etc. And then, tell me I should "gamble" instead of surrendering my hand. They're just clueless.

Everything said here I agree with and is also most of my experiences... I don't think I've ever come across a dealer that knows surrendering is basic strategy. Yet I've had dealer after dealer roll their eyes, call me a quitter, say things like "I just don't think I could ever give up half my money and not even try!"

Quote: Romes

Everything said here I agree with and is also most of my experiences... I don't think I've ever come across a dealer that knows surrendering is basic strategy. Yet I've had dealer after dealer roll their eyes, call me a quitter, say things like "I just don't think I could ever give up half my money and not even try!"

Thank god for the 0- 15v10 16v9 index. I've had dealers get legitimately angry after I surrendered a few hands in a row.

I once had a dealer that paid me $17.50 (an extra red) on my $25 wagers making surrendering a -30% EV play instead of -50%. She didn't understand why I was surrendering every 12 through 17 vs. her 8s, 9s, and 10s.

Some fun math:
If surrender paid 70% all the time, the player edge would be a whopping 2.310% and basic strategy would look something like this. (Assumes infinite decks)

Quote: Donuts

...I once had a dealer that paid me $17.50 (an extra red) on my $25 wagers making surrendering a -30% EV play instead of -50%. She didn't understand why I was surrendering every 12 through 17 vs. her 8s, 9s, and 10s...

Wow, what a situation =p. Of course I'm sure others will be saying "leave before they accuse you of collusion!" to which I 'kind of' agree... but that's neither here nor there, what a great +EV situation that must have been.

Thanks for the charts too. Fun to look at something different and how other rules could affect ones playing decisions.