gav
gav
Joined: Feb 16, 2015
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February 23rd, 2015 at 10:20:17 AM permalink
My buddies were playing 2 deck pitch and I was watching the play and an A-7 showed up against a dealer 2 and I said, "Good doubler over on the shoe game". And the dealer said, "No way; double 3-6 and hit 9-A". Then the question came up of whether or not a double on a dealer 6 with A-8 was good and he disagrees with that play as well.

I got my basic strategy advice from the wizards H17 chart since my local casino only offers H17, 6-deck, DAS, RSA, DA, and no surrender. So i looked at the chart for S17 and it looks like thats where he was getting his playing strategy from.

So should I heed the dealers advice for those plays even though its a H17 game or keep playing Wizards strategy?
Donuts
Donuts
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February 23rd, 2015 at 10:25:10 AM permalink
I've never heard of a dealer that knew basic strategy perfectly for the game they were dealing.

Use the Wizard's charts - they're correct.

In this case, specifically, you double A7 vs 2 and A8 vs 6 if it was a two deck game for basic strategy.

That being said the EV of doubling instead of just hitting on those two plays is very similar and index to from double to hit at around TC -1 for DD.
Dieter
Administrator
Dieter
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February 23rd, 2015 at 10:29:43 AM permalink
Quote: Donuts

I've never heard of a dealer that knew basic strategy perfectly for the game they were dealing.



From what I can tell, most dealers have learned strategy from the mistake card in the gift shop.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Donuts
Donuts
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February 23rd, 2015 at 10:46:46 AM permalink
Quote: Dieter

From what I can tell, most dealers have learned strategy from the mistake card in the gift shop.



I think its just pattern recognition/confirmation bias for a lot of them. They seem to make the correct play based on intuition as opposed to math.

Examples:
Not hitting 12 v 2 / 12 v 3 since the dealer "should" bust.
Not Doubling A8 v 6 since you already have a good hand.
Always taking even money since its guaranteed profit.
gav
gav
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February 23rd, 2015 at 10:48:29 AM permalink
"that being said the ev of doubling instead of just hitting on those two plays is very similar and index to from double to hit at around tc -1 for dd."

So both plays have indices at -1 for dd? How bout six deck? Since I can double any first two cards and only 10 and 11 in dd.

Pretty sure the HE for my six deck game is higher than the dd but like playing it at a full table.
Romes
Romes
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February 23rd, 2015 at 11:19:56 AM permalink
This is very common. Even at my local shop all they offer on the main floor is H17... Yet ALL of the dealers were taught S17 strategy. Casinos do this because they don't want players playing perfectly. This is also why they often sell the wrong BS card in the gift shop (my local shop does this as well... sells S17 basic strategy cards and offers H17 games).

Basic strategy changes depending on the house rules. The number of decks is a "rule" that must be considered, as it can change the strategy.

A-8 doubles vs 6 in a H17 game off the top, where as it doubles at +1 in a S17 game.

You should ALWAYS follow the Wizards strategy, so long as you plugged in the proper information.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Deucekies
Deucekies
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February 23rd, 2015 at 3:12:28 PM permalink
Quote: Romes

This is very common. Even at my local shop all they offer on the main floor is H17... Yet ALL of the dealers were taught S17 strategy. Casinos do this because they don't want players playing perfectly. This is also why they often sell the wrong BS card in the gift shop (my local shop does this as well... sells S17 basic strategy cards and offers H17 games).


I find it mind-boggling that casinos would do this. Where I work, we were taught the correct strategy chart from Wizard, and we were told in no uncertain terms that we were not allowed to give any advice that wasn't on that chart. If we ever don't know the correct answer, we're supposed to call the floor, and the pit boss will look it up.

The reason being they don't want players saying "Hey! The dealer told me to stay on my 12 against that 2! I want a refund!" It seems to me that purposely feeding bad advice to the players is a liability waiting to happen.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland. And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with. - AxelWolf and Mickeycrimm
HowMany
HowMany
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February 23rd, 2015 at 3:19:10 PM permalink
I don't think dealers are purposely feeding players bad advice.

I believe dealers are just trying to be helpful, even though they are often wrong.

Dealers often politely criticize many correct plays. They tell me I'm a crazy gambler for doubling 11 vs A, A8 vs 6, etc. And then, tell me I should "gamble" instead of surrendering my hand. They're just clueless.
Avincow
Avincow
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February 23rd, 2015 at 6:02:46 PM permalink
Quote: HowMany

I don't think dealers are purposely feeding players bad advice.

I believe dealers are just trying to be helpful, even though they are often wrong.

Dealers often politely criticize many correct plays. They tell me I'm a crazy gambler for doubling 11 vs A, A8 vs 6, etc. And then, tell me I should "gamble" instead of surrendering my hand. They're just clueless.



A dealer once told me if I stopped surrendering my 16 v 10s, that I would see that I could win at least 5 out of 10 times. That sounds like good odds to me.
Romes
Romes
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February 24th, 2015 at 7:32:22 AM permalink
Quote: HowMany

I don't think dealers are purposely feeding players bad advice.

I believe dealers are just trying to be helpful, even though they are often wrong.

Dealers often politely criticize many correct plays. They tell me I'm a crazy gambler for doubling 11 vs A, A8 vs 6, etc. And then, tell me I should "gamble" instead of surrendering my hand. They're just clueless.


Everything said here I agree with and is also most of my experiences... I don't think I've ever come across a dealer that knows surrendering is basic strategy. Yet I've had dealer after dealer roll their eyes, call me a quitter, say things like "I just don't think I could ever give up half my money and not even try!"
Playing it correctly means you've already won.

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