Unusual blackjack plays
On one hand I was playing third base and I had a 6,7 vs a dealer 10-up. I drew an 8 for 21. The player to my right doubled on 10 (not warranted by the count). So the dealer turns over his down-card and revels an ace for a natural. (I don’t remember if the dealer checked for blackjack and he didn’t remember either.) The pit boss came over and pushed my hand and gave the player that doubled down back his double down bet and only kept his original wager (he didn’t have a total of 21 after the double down).
On another weird play at another casino I was playing heads-up. I look down to pick up my two-card hand and there’s three cards sitting on the table (that's never happened to me before), and the dealer’s up-card is a five. The pitboss is called over and I asked if I could just pick up two of the unseen cards, and he said, “Yes, you haven’t looked at them right?” And I said that I hadn’t. So I turn over two fours. The pitboss asks me if I want to proceed or call my 4,4 dead. I say I’ll play and I continue to split. I wind up with two stiff hands and the dealer goes on to a pat hand that would have beat both mine. The pitboss calls the whole round a push.
At this same casino and dealer, a little later, the dealer has an ace up. After she determines she does not have a natural I look at my hand and I have 13. The count is less than -4 and I say to myself if I draw a 4 I’m going to immediately hit again. So I get a 4! As I hit again and bust I fumble the cards onto the table as though I mistakenly hit my hard 17. No mistake.
I was playing at another casino at a $25 min DD, DAS, DA2, H17 game. I had a stack of green out. 6 or so chips. Dealer has an ace up and asks for insurance. I just push out about half my bet and ask if I’m okay. He says I’ll get paid $150 (meaning the insurance payout). But I didn’t interpret what he said to mean that I would be paid less than my original wager. So the dealer has the 10 under for blackjack, pulls a $25 chip from my stack and puts it in his rack and give me back the rest of the original wager along with the insurance bet. I said to him, “ I asked you if I was okay.” He said he told me that I would get back $150 (and that my wager was $175). I explained that when I asked him if I was okay he should have told me I needed another $12.50 to insure my whole bet. He kinda called it a miscommunication.
Anyway, I let it go. I should have just put out more that enough on the insurance wager, which is what I usually do if there’s odd change required and I don’t have the lower denomination chips or I don’t want to hassle with it. I brought the whole issue up later with a pitboss and he told me that the dealer was probably new. (I was kinda hoping that the pitboss would give me the $25 but he didn’t.)
Quote: GreasyjohnWe should have both lost our original wager, of course. I guess the pitboss felt that it would have been a bigger let down for me to hit to 21 and still take my wager. Anyway, that's the decision he made.
Letting your 21 push is the standard ruling where I work, and it's one I agree with. If the dealer has a blackjack and lets you guys play out the hand, his hand is treated as a 21. 21 pushes against 21. The other player had the opportunity to get to 21 same as you, and he didn't make it.
Of course the double down is returned because it never should have happened.
Quote: GreasyjohnOn one hand I was playing third base and I had a 6,7 vs a dealer 10-up. I drew an 8 for 21. The player to my right doubled on 10 ( not warranted by the count). So the dealer turns over his down-card and revels an ace for a natural. (I don’t remember if the dealer checked for blackjack and he didn’t remember either. The pit boss came over and pushed my hand and gave the player that doubled down back his double down bet and only kept his original wager ( he didn’t have a total of 21 after the double down).
On another weird play at another casino I was playing heads-up. I look down to pick up my two-card hand and there’s three cards sitting on the table (that's never happened to me before), and the dealer’s up-card is a five. The pitboss is called over and I asked if I could just pick up two of the unseen cards, and he said, “Yes, you haven’t looked at them right?” And I said that I hadn’t. So I turn over two fours. The pitboss asks me if I want to proceed or call my 4,4 dead. I say I’ll play and I continue to split. I wind up with two stiff hands and the dealer goes on to a pat hand that would have beat both mine. The pitboss calls the whole round a push.
A common criticism of floor people is that they don't treat problem hands the same, even within the same casino. Sure, there should be established procedures, but often there aren't / there hasn't been training for certain types of things, so the floor tries to adapt one of the other rules to fit the situation.
I've experienced these types of resolutions before. I've also experienced other ways to handle it. I'm just supposed to act as the floor tells me to do. It has always been somewhere along the spectrum of the bare minimum better than what should have happened to hands where no losing bet was taken.
My advice is to politely ask the floor about a favorable outcome, but don't be persistent about it.
Quote: Greasyjohn
I was playing at another casino at a $25 min DD, DAS, DA2, H17 game. I had a stack of green out. 6 or so chips. Dealer has an ace up and asks for insurance. I just push out about half my bet and ask if I’m okay. He says I’ll get paid $150 (meaning the insurance payout). But I didn’t think about what he said to mean that I would be paid less than my original wager. So the dealer has the 10 under for blackjack, pulls a $25 chip from my stack and puts it in his rack and give me back the rest of the original wager along with the insurance bet. I said to him, “ I asked you if I was okay.” He said he told me that I would get back $150 (and that my wager was $175). I explained that when I asked him if I was okay he should have told me I needed another $12.50 to insure my whole bet. He kinda called it a miscommunication.
Anyway, I let it go. I should have just put out more that enough on the insurance wager, which is what I usually do if there’s odd change required and I don’t have the lower denomination chips or I don’t want to hassle with it. I brought the whole issue up later with a pitboss and he told me that the dealer was probably new. (I was kinda hoping that the pitboss would give me the $25 but he didn’t.)
I doubt you would ever get a floor to approve the extra quarter. With insurance you are allowed to bet UP TO half your wager. Your dealer took your question as "Is it okay that I bet less than half?". So his response that you will get paid $150 was an appropriate response, since it is okay that you did what you did. His response wasn't the most direct and better customer service might have been warranted. Since there was no mistake in gameplay, just in the amount bet, which is the player's responsibility, most floors will be sympathetic, but not give you anything.
I usually point out to players that they are under half for insurance, since the typical insurance bettor always wants to bet half.
Quote: RSI've insured a BJ for less before. Dealer was so wtf confused and what to take/pay/push.
I had the same thing happen. I insured a Blackjack by mistake instead of taking even money. It went from dealer to floor to the pitboss and finally the shift manager had to come to figure it out. The floor and pit were trying to tell me that I lost my hand and
Because I didn't take even money. Oh and the dealer did have blackjack
Quote: RSI've insured a BJ for less before. Dealer was so wtf confused and what to take/pay/push.
I know this has come up here before. How often do you make this play, and have you always been allowed to do it? I can definitely see a pit boss saying "No, you have a blackjack, your option is even money."
Quote: DeucekiesI know this has come up here before. How often do you make this play, and have you always been allowed to do it? I can definitely see a pit boss saying "No, you have a blackjack, your option is even money."
The technically correct way to settle it:
Push the main bet.
Pay the insurance bet at 2:1.
If you're offered even money on a 6:5 table (why are you playing a 6:5 table?), take it.
Quote: DeucekiesI know this has come up here before. How often do you make this play, and have you always been allowed to do it? I can definitely see a pit boss saying "No, you have a blackjack, your option is even money."
It was a little sweaty feeling. Boss had come over a few hands before and we were talking a little. I had 2 odd bets out. I asked the boss if I could insure for less, and he let me. I didn't feel like breaking chips down, etc. etc. especially with the true-count making the play slightly +EV. Figured I was getting a good amount of EV out of it with some cover. Plus it was hilarious as shit watching the dealer not know what to do.
Quote: GreasyjohnOn one hand I was playing third base and I had a 6,7 vs a dealer 10-up. I drew an 8 for 21. The player to my right doubled on 10 (not warranted by the count). So the dealer turns over his down-card and revels an ace for a natural. (I don’t remember if the dealer checked for blackjack and he didn’t remember either.) The pit boss came over and pushed my hand and gave the player that doubled down back his double down bet and only kept his original wager (he didn’t have a total of 21 after the double down).
This happened to me at Revel - they took over 30 minutes to figure it out (they pushed my double and kept my original bet) — it annoyed me that they would waste so much time and not just let my bet ride for the next hand — annoyed the lady at the table with me so much she left to go to the Borgata (she was playing $1k/hand)
Bob Dancer andRichard Munchkin discussed it on GWAE and said I was "taking a shot"
Revel's VP eventually called my room and gave me the $100 chip back and deemed it "customer appreciation"
Quote: RSI've insured a BJ for less before. Dealer was so wtf confused and what to take/pay/push.
I don't see why there should be any confusion at all. If the dealer has the BJ he pays the insurance wager 2:1 and the blackjacks push. If he doesn't, the insurance wager is lost and the player's blackjack is paid at 3:2. It's all very straight forward.
Quote: HunterhillI had the same thing happen. I insured a Blackjack by mistake instead of taking even money. It went from dealer to floor to the pitboss and finally the shift manager had to come to figure it out. The floor and pit were trying to tell me that I lost my hand and Because I didn't take even money. Oh and the dealer did have blackjack
I'm confused as to why the dealer and floor were confused. Insuring a blackjack for the full half wager is the same thing as taking even money (on a 3:2 game). I would hope that that would have been covered in the dealer's training.
Assuming a full half wager insurance and a player blackjack:
1) If dealer has blackjack, the main bet pushes and the insurance bets wins 2x on 0.5 = 1 unit win.
2) If dealer does not have blackjack, the main bet gets 1.5 units and the insurance bet loses 0.5, for a net 1 unit win.
3) If the player asks for even money, it is a 1 unit win, the same as either way of taking insurance shown above.
As mentioned above, if you can get an even money payoff on a 6:5 game, take it. Dealers are warned not to pay out even money on 6:5, but it happens.
Just to put some figures on it, here's the math for 6:5, again assuming a full half wager insurance and a player blackjack:
1) If dealer has blackjack, the main bet pushes and the insurance bets wins 2x on 0.5 = 1 unit win.
2) If dealer does not have blackjack, the main bet gets 1.2 units and the insurance bet loses 0.5, for a net 0.7 unit win.
3) If the player asks for even money, it is a guaranteed 1 unit win.
With insurance:
4/13 chance of 1 unit win and 9/13 chance of 0.7 unit win = EV of 0.7923 units.
Without any insurance / even money:
4/13 chance of 0 unit win and 9/13 chance of 1.2 unit win = EV of 0.8308 units.
Quote:
I'm confused as to why the dealer and floor were confused. Insuring a blackjack for the full half wager is the same thing as taking even money (on a 3:2 game).
Nitpicking here, but insurance for full 1/2 bet is the same as even money, doesn't matter what the payout is. The only difference is in the proper strategy of when to do it.
I don't think I've ever made this play before. I always make the right play no matter how much is out there! (Splitting 10s and such depending on the situation.)
