Cambridge Blackjack Team

Hi all,

A friend and I recently (attempted) to start a blackjack team in Cambridge, MA. We recruited roughly 30 MIT and Harvard students that were interested.

Our initial plan was to avoid investors and instead pool bankroll money to avoid the management/player disconnect evident in the original MIT team and keep players motivated. What we found, however, is most students don't have the capital required to make any sort of reasonable investment, and most aren't motivated enough to practice since there's no salary structure guaranteeing them money.

We'll continue to run this team as a training grounds once a week since there are maybe 1 or 2 that could be valuable players in the future (despite lack of funds).

That being said, we'd like to find more like minded people to expedite the process of creating a fully functional team (still without investors). We're looking for people that are willing to practice as much as we are, commit a reasonable amount of capital, and play in the casinos a couple times a month with us. We're not looking to make this a full time job, but we're taking this very seriously since there's a good chunk of cash on the line.

A lot of the "grunt" work is already done so to speak - we really just need quality players at this point. We have completed club overview and training documents, custom basic strategy charts, custom index charts (-1 to +10 TC), custom code to calculate EV of play (courtesy of the original MIT team), custom RoR calculators, partially automated performance tracking (working on improving this), and all of the equipment needed for practice (felts, cards, shoes, chips, etc.)

Feel free to leave a reply or shoot me a PM

Thanks

Don't hide money in your dorm room ceiling. :-) You're going to have to travel a lot.

I'd be very careful about posting online. Very careful.

Seems like this has been done...to death already. You don't think the casino industry is well aware of and on the look out for this type of approach (and it's really not very difficult to spot). And now, you have just 'announced' yourselves.

Good luck to you though.

Quote: 1BB

I'd be very careful about posting online. Very careful.

Noted - didn't post anything personally identifiable for that reason.

Quote: kewlj

Seems like this has been done...to death already.

No doubt it has - but its still fun to try and add your own twist to the play.
To clarify, we're not looking to create a monster team, just 4-5 people with some experience that don't mind running a tight ship.

Quote: kewlj

You don't think the casino industry is well aware of and on the look out for this type of approach (and it's really not very difficult to spot). And now, you have just 'announced' yourselves.

I'm positive casino employees scour these forums, but there's not enough information in the post to identify anyone that's actually playing right now at their casinos for reasons I won't elaborate on.

I don't really like the idea of forming a team over the internet, mainly because I don't know who you are. These are things that would make me nervous:

1. Trusting strangers with my money

• Someone on the team may be a thief
• Someone on the team may be a gambler
• Someone on the team may be a scam artist
• Someone on the team may be in OSN, I don't know want to be associated with that person

2. Trusting that you are a legitimate blackjack player and not someone who works for OSN

• Okay, this one is a little paranoid, but what if this is some elaborate ploy to identify card counters

You should have the same worries on your end. And for #2, that's kind of paranoid for me to be thinking about, but it is definitely something you should be taking into consideration. If you let a guy from OSN on your team by mistake, then that OSN guy can log 30 card counters into his database.

These days only counting is a waste of time. The casino can also spot counters a mile away. Try to find a better paying game. Even AP bingo would pay better.

Teams stink! Go it alone, managing a few different people is tough, managing a lot of different people is impossible ask the MIT team.

Quote: Avincow

I don't really like the idea of forming a team over the internet, mainly because I don't know who you are. These are things that would make me nervous:

1. Trusting strangers with my money

• Someone on the team may be a thief
• Someone on the team may be a gambler
• Someone on the team may be a scam artist
• Someone on the team may be in OSN, I don't know want to be associated with that person

2. Trusting that you are a legitimate blackjack player and not someone who works for OSN

• Okay, this one is a little paranoid, but what if this is some elaborate ploy to identify card counters

You should have the same worries on your end. And for #2, that's kind of paranoid for me to be thinking about, but it is definitely something you should be taking into consideration. If you let a guy from OSN on your team by mistake, then that OSN guy can log 30 card counters into his database.

Yeah, trusting random people with money is the major issue.

#2 is unlikely, since I doubt someone would be willing to risk a beating (or worse) to log a few card counters into a database. Someone pretending to be your friend just to fuck you over.. yeah.. people have been shot for less than that.

Quote: Avincow

I don't really like the idea of forming a team over the internet, mainly because I don't know who you are. These are things that would make me nervous:

Absolutely - I wouldn't imagine pooling any significant sum with anyone I just met. There would be a few months of training, casino trips, and just getting to know each other at the very least to check for play accuracy and character. Could a thief slip through the cracks? Probably. But going through all that just to skim a few bucks a session from the top seems pretty ambitious.

All teams have thieves, even the Christian
team had them. It's inescapable. The
casino has so many ways of catching
a team now, it's just not worth the
effort. The glory days for teams was
mid 70's to mid 90's, it's long gone.

This is a patently bad idea. Not only are you trying to recruit strangers off the net, but you're doing it for a mediocre card counting play.

And it's not "skimming a few bucks," people can steal thousands per session, or take off with the whole part of the roll you give them. People have pulled long cons for more effort than a few months for less money.

If you're going to go through the effort of getting a team together, you might as well do something better than card counting, which you can just do solo.

Card counting is a bit of a silly venture these days.

Too many kids think it's like the movie "21"

Quote: Keyser

Too many kids think it's like the movie "21"

Too many kids overlooked that the movie "21" implied that security was sure to recognize you now as a card counter, meaning you'll have a very limited opportunity to play.

I was an investor on a team several years ago that lost money over two years. Personally, I suspect their were some dishonest players, which will ruin the whole thing. After that, I could not see being part of another team, but I wish you well.

Quote: Wizard

I was an investor on a team several years ago that lost money over two years. Personally, I suspect their were some dishonest players, which will ruin the whole thing. After that, I could no see being part of another team, but I wish you well.

But the OP has "custom basic strategy charts"

Quote: Keyser

Card counting is a bit of a silly venture these days.

Too many kids think it's like the movie "21"

If done properly a BJ team can still be profitable. I'm doubtful Just simply card counting is going to be successful.

If you send people in small groups this should help eliminate thievery.

The OP seems to be vetting people with money and quality. Anyone with both those qualifications will be hard to find. Most likely someone who has what it takes to be successful wouldn't be interested in a unproven, unknown, unestablished new team. An established team would snap a qualified person up

A few Red flags. Starting off with posting about a new BJ team in the first place.

1 or 2 people with lack of funds.

" We're not looking to make this a full time job" " and play in the casinos a couple times a month with us" It should be a full time job.

A few times a month isn't going to cut it.

"A lot of the "grunt" work is already done so to speak - we really just need quality players at this point. We have completed club overview and training documents, custom basic strategy charts, custom index charts (-1 to +10 TC), custom code to calculate EV of play (courtesy of the original MIT team), custom RoR calculators, partially automated performance tracking (working on improving this), and all of the equipment needed for practice (felts, cards, shoes, chips, etc.)"
This all sounds to contrived and desperate, like a spam scam advertisement. (Im not saying it is it a scam, it could all be legitimate)

I would be more worried about my investment just disappearing.

I highly suggest anyone interested (You bet there are) do your homework and be 100% sure everything is on the square.

Quote: Keyser

Card counting is a bit of a silly venture these days.

Quote: Keyser

These days only counting is a waste of time. The casino can also spot counters a mile away. Try to find a better paying game. Even AP bingo would pay better.

These kind of posts annoy me a bit, Keyser. I participate on a couple other, blackjack themed message boards and every once in a while, one of the members will post something along these lines. Usually it is an older member, who has been playing for 20 or 30 years and had access to the better games of yesterday. (I don't know your circumstances am not suggesting you are older). I can appreciate that this type of player has grown frustrated by todays conditions compared to what they knew yesteryear. For someone like myself who's career began in a year that started with 2, these are the only conditions we have known. We have adjusted our game and plan of attack to play and beat these games.

These types of statements just aren't true. You might have to work a little harder, scout more for decent games, change your plan of attack to 'escape' at least some of the negative counts (wong out) and use a more aggressive bet spread, which requires a bigger bankroll, but the mathematics of cards counting is exactly the same and the principals still work just fine. To state otherwise is just false. It's no different than stating other fallacies like that the martingale works or the world is flat.

If you want to say that card counting is no longer worth it to YOU, worth your time and effort that is fine. But don't imply that it no longer works and that's what I think these posts imply. It's not only inaccurate but it's not really fair to newer members who read such things and believe them to be true. It's really a disservice to a site like this.

Quote: kewlj

These kind of posts annoy me a bit, Keyser. I participate on a couple other, blackjack themed message boards and every once in a while, one of the members will post something along these lines. Usually it is an older member, who has been playing for 20 or 30 years and had access to the better games of yesterday. (I don't know your circumstances am not suggesting you are older). I can appreciate that this type of player has grown frustrated by todays conditions compared to what they knew yesteryear. For someone like myself who's career began in a year that started with 2, these are the only conditions we have known. We have adjusted our game and plan of attack to play and beat these games.

These types of statements just aren't true. You might have to work a little harder, scout more for decent games, change your plan of attack to 'escape' at least some of the negative counts (wong out) and use a more aggressive bet spread, which requires a bigger bankroll, but the mathematics of cards counting is exactly the same and the principals still work just fine. To state otherwise is just false. It's no different than stating other fallacies like that the martingale works or the world is flat.

If you want to say that card counting is no longer worth it to YOU, worth your time and effort that is fine. But don't imply that it no longer works and that's what I think these posts imply. It's not only inaccurate but it's not really fair to newer members who read such things and believe them to be true. It's really a disservice to a site like this.

In Keyser's defence, he did say it was a waste of time, not that it doesn't work. Counting in BJ is not that great of an AP play. It's a common sentiment of APs. You have a low edge, high N0, the variance, and not to mention it's easiest thing to spot.

Counting card teams work in movies, not in real life. You simply can't make a living counting cards these days, while shouting, "Winner winner chicken dinner". Most of the people counting have absolutely no idea just how bad the variance really is. The edge is, at best, puny.

Furthermore, it's so obvious to the casino. The black shirts, sunglasses, and poker act isn't helping. If you play for very long, you will get countered or banned. Every week someone new is complaining about how they were banned or backed off. We even get some goofs that think they can get away with perhaps using fake IDs (A really dumb idea).

The people looking to supplement their income, via counting, should consider a part time job, instead of counting. You will likely find that you can make more money, even if the job is min. wage. Another option is to find better AP plays, like AP Bingo or progressives.

In short, counting alone is a foolish AP play.


-Keyser

Quote: Keyser

You simply can't make a living counting cards these days. The edge is, at best, puny.

Furthermore, it's so obvious to the casino. The black shirts, sunglasses, and poker act isn't helping.

Well, this isn't my experience. I am in my 11 th year of supporting myself from AP play in which 80% is strictly card counting. Up until 4 years ago, 100% of my AP play that I support myself with was from card counting. You are most certainly correct the edge is small and the variance great, as my 2014 year has proven where my results from card counting is just under 50% expectation and well under 50% of my last 2 years (both 6 figure).

But there is an edge there. I have tailored my game and plan of attack to take advantage of these 'less favorable' conditions and that included picking up and relocating 2500 miles to an area with many games available so I could implement my hit and run style over a larger rotation of casinos. So it can be done. Again, if you want to say that it's not worth it to you, that's fine, but a statement like "you simply can't make a living counting cards these days", just is inaccurate.

As far as being obvious to the casinos, longevity is my number one concern and priority as I want to play for at least a few more year. What I have learned during my time here in Vegas, is longevity isn't about hiding what you are doing, so much as about identifying and playing within the tolerance or comfort levels of the different casinos.

Quote: kewlj

Well, this isn't my experience. I am in my 11 th year of supporting myself from AP play in which 80% is strictly card counting. Up until 4 years ago, 100% of my AP play that I support myself with was from card counting. You are most certainly correct the edge is small and the variance great, as my 2014 year has proven where my results from card counting is just under 50% expectation and well under 50% of my last 2 years (both 6 figure).

But there is an edge there. I have tailored my game and plan of attack to take advantage of these 'less favorable' conditions and that included picking up and relocating 2500 miles to an area with many games available so I could implement my hit and run style over a larger rotation of casinos. So it can be done. Again, if you want to say that it's not worth it to you, that's fine, but a statement like "you simply can't make a living counting cards these days", just is inaccurate.

As far as being obvious to the casinos, longevity is my number one concern and priority as I want to play for at least a few more year. What I have learned during my time here in Vegas, is longevity isn't about hiding what you are doing, so much as about identifying and playing within the tolerance or comfort levels of the different casinos.

Yeah, but you busted your ass and put in a lot of hours. Most people get into AP play think it's easy money.

Quote: AxelWolf

But the OP has "custom basic strategy charts"

I should've bolded that part - it was my primary selling point. It wasn't easy color coding that grid.

Quote: kewlj

Again, if you want to say that it's not worth it to you, that's fine, but a statement like "you simply can't make a living counting cards these days", just is inaccurate.

It's really darn hard to make a living out of it part time, on a small bank, with high travel expenses.

I have never meet anyone that makes a worthwhile amount of money solely card counting in the US.

Not saying no one does it, I'm just saying.

I haven't meet Kewlj. However he seems to pull it off, I would say he is an extremely rare case.

Especially since he still has viable locations after doing it so long just in Vegas.

If you're banked, dedicated and talented enough to successfully pull it off, you should be really thinking of better opportunities worth far more.The best card counters usually graduate quickly.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have never meet anyone that makes a worthwhile amount of money solely card counting in the US.

Not saying no one does it, I'm just saying.

I haven't meet Kewlj. However he seems to pull it off, I would say he is an extremely rare case.

Especially since he still has viable locations after doing it so long just in Vegas.

If you're banked, dedicated and talented enough to successfully pull it off, you should be really thinking of better opportunities worth far more.The best card counters usually graduate quickly.

Again, he spends a LOT of time on it, probably more time than a full time job once you count travel and all the other bullshit. A typical person works like what, 2000 hours? Not many people are willing or able to spend 2000 hours on card counting (including time scouting, traveling, etc..) He also seems willing to play games at a casinos tolerance level, which is not optimal for EV obviously since you have to hold back. Personally I bet table max for my AP plays until I get tossed, because otherwise I would rather get a job if I had to play small bets.

If you want to take kewlj's approach, it's going to be a lot of hard work and a lot of team members you recruit will quickly get disinterested. If you take my approach with card counting (keep in mind my plays are a LOT less obvious than card counting), your whole team is going to get blacklisted everywhere really fast. Good luck betting table on a card counting play. You WILL get skills checked and you WILL get backed off. (When I put out my table max bets there's a phone call upstairs guaranteed. It's procedure. If you're card counting you'll certainly be made at this point).

Quote: sc15

your whole team is going to get blacklisted everywhere really fast.....You WILL get skills checked and you WILL get backed off.

^ This




However, one good thing about card-counting which makes it different than just about any other advantage play is that you can do it at just about any casino in the US.

Also, having a large team will guarantee theft, and lots of it.

I work with other people, but only with those I consider friends and trust. Most people won't rip off their friends. If I was being given a bankroll by some faceless investor, I would try to steal every dime I could. There's no loyalty, and very little accountability, and that WILL lead to dishonesty.

If you want to work with a team, you need to be doing it with people you know and trust.

Quote: Keyser

Counting card teams work in movies, not in real life. You simply can't make a living counting cards these days, while shouting, "Winner winner chicken dinner". Most of the people counting have absolutely no idea just how bad the variance really is. The edge is, at best, puny.

Furthermore, it's so obvious to the casino. The black shirts, sunglasses, and poker act isn't helping. If you play for very long, you will get countered or banned. Every week someone new is complaining about how they were banned or backed off. We even get some goofs that think they can get away with perhaps using fake IDs (A really dumb idea).

The people looking to supplement their income, via counting, should consider a part time job, instead of counting. You will likely find that you can make more money, even if the job is min. wage. Another option is to find better AP plays, like AP Bingo or progressives.

In short, counting alone is a foolish AP play.


-Keyser

Keyser, I respect a lot of your posts, but I disagree with you on this topic. I might have a slightly different view being a red chipper (as in not as much heat) but I'm still playing games from $30-$36 per hour, and this doesn't count the beatable side bets I fully exploit for an additional $40/hour. I am only a part time player. You're right, I could easily pick up side work in my profession and get paid $100/hour... but you're missing a key point about me, my life, and my experience counting. It's not just about the money. Yes, the extra part time money is nice, buys little things, etc, but it's more about doing something I enjoy, something memorable, something exciting, and something I can tell stories of later in life. When I'm 80 and my grand kids ask me for a story, do I want to tell them about the weekend I sat at my computer and earned an extra $700 programming? Or do I want to tell them about my road trip and mission heading to a casino to do something they don't want me doing to get money from them while they gave me free food, rooms, etc? I do enjoy my job, but not enough to put in another 5-10 hours a weekend programming in front of a computer screen at my home. I'd rather spend that 5-10 hours on a weekend going on a trip with a buddy, counting just under the radar, and removing small amounts of money from a casino. It's a hobby that I enjoy, am good at, and want to do... not a job to bring in a little extra cash (even if ultimately that is how I keep track of who's winning and losing).

My opinion is that you're portraying to people it's 'foolish' and not worth it, not because it is, but because no one except people who've put the real time in know how difficult it really is. No one really knows how much of a grind it is, how much variance sucks, nor just how little of an advantage they really have. It's great to warn new people of these things, but it's very misleading, and incorrect to outright tell them it does not work and shouldn't be done.

A team could/would work phenomenally, it's just not all that probable. I agree it would be very difficult to trust a bunch of random people from the internet with chunks of money. However, I don't support the statement "counting card teams work in the movies, not in real life." I've been training my one buddy for about a year, and he's passed my checkout a couple months ago, so we started playing out of a shared bankroll when we go on our trips. This is one of my best friends whom would never short me $1, and I would trust with my life. Our team, albeit small, works. Through my personal experiences I know that counting, works. KewlJ is another example of counting working. There are so many more examples just on this site of counting still being 100% applicable and viable even today. While it might not 'work' for you, your life, your time, etc, that doesn't mean it doesn't work for the rest of us (as I believe KewlJ was stating)... and it could be taken a little offensive to call people who count "foolish."

Quote: Romes

... but it's more about doing something I enjoy, something memorable, something exciting, and something I can tell stories of later in life.

This guy gets it