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Romes
Romes
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August 3rd, 2016 at 7:53:13 AM permalink
Quote: LostWages

Aloha, Jim!

I am hoping you might comment or evaluate the "play" I plan to try on my first trip to a blackjack table this coming Oct 2016. We are booked at The Cal, so I checked the WOO's survey to find out there are 15ea 2-deck tables w/$5 min, dealer hits on S17, no DAS, no RSA, no SURR, no CSM, no party pit, no 6/5 BJ, no video, and HE 0.60225.

As a novice, I will probably flat $5. I have memorized the WOO's Simple Strategy card, but I'm not yet ready for the full Basic Strategy (but I printed out the cards for S17 and H17 anyway).

I have a small buy-in session of $80/day over 5 days.

Would you kindly show me the calculations to evaluate my "play"?

I read and re-read your post here, but some of the terms/info are above my head based on my current experience at the table (none, that is).

Thanks in advance for your help!

Hello lost wages. You haven't given us enough information =). The casino likes to know how much you bet and how long you play for. You can flat bet $5, but if you play for 1 hour per day or 10 hours per day that's going to be a BIG difference in your comps!

Here's the general formula for comps... Comp = ExpectedLoss*(.20), where Expected Loss = TotalWagered*HouseEdge, where TotalWagered = NumHands*AvgBet.

So in the end we need to know the number of hands you're going to play (can estimate from time played), your average bet (flat $5), and the house edge (which they will put you higher than the min, especially if you don't even yet know basic strategy). So all we need is an estimate of how many hours you plan to play per day!
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
gamerfreak
gamerfreak
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August 3rd, 2016 at 10:11:15 AM permalink
I was about to make a post similar to this, but for table games in general.

There's a particular property where I feel I get rated significantly higher playing 3CP compared to other games. And I think it's because I only play ante/play but I get rated as if I'm playing pairs+ and six card bonus like every other player.
DRich
DRich
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August 3rd, 2016 at 11:04:36 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Hello lost wages. You haven't given us enough information =). The casino likes to know how much you bet and how long you play for. You can flat bet $5, but if you play for 1 hour per day or 10 hours per day that's going to be a BIG difference in your comps!

Here's the general formula for comps... Comp = ExpectedLoss*(.20), where Expected Loss = TotalWagered*HouseEdge, where TotalWagered = NumHands*AvgBet.

So in the end we need to know the number of hands you're going to play (can estimate from time played), your average bet (flat $5), and the house edge (which they will put you higher than the min, especially if you don't even yet know basic strategy). So all we need is an estimate of how many hours you plan to play per day!



I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A $5 player will get about $1.25 in comps per hour.
Order from chaos
Romes
Romes
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August 3rd, 2016 at 11:19:05 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A $5 player will get about $1.25 in comps per hour.

Well let's take a look at an average example...

Avg Bet = $5
Hands Per Hour = 70
Hours Played = 4 (one session from one day)
House Edge ~ -.5%, but they'll rate you higher than that as on average most people do not know basic strategy. I've seen rating as high as 5%. Avg I'll say is 2%.

EL = TotalWagered*HouseEdge = (NumHands*AvgBet)*HouseEdge = (280*5)*(-.02) = -$28

Comp = |EL| * (.20) = 28*(.20) = $5.60.

So in this scenario, a $5 better will get about $5.60 per hour back in comps, assuming they typically play 4 hour sessions at 70 hands per hour, with a typical average player rating. If you're a known "good" basic strategy player, your HE will be lower... Maybe .5% or maybe 1%.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
TwoFeathersATL
TwoFeathersATL
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August 3rd, 2016 at 11:20:53 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A $5 player will get about $1.25 in comps per hour.

I have read, for several years here now, explanations of generalizations of hypothetical computations used by some/many/all casino operations to award comps. None of the explanations, well almost none, have ever even come close to being in the same universe as my experience in terms of comps. Admittedly my exposure has been pretty limited in terms of the number of facilities that I have been able to play at (wife has me on short leash).

However, at the risk of repeating myself, I read the explanations. I understand the terms. I can find little or no, closer to no, correlation between what has been methodically and often intricately explained and my personal experience. Almost none.

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DRich
DRich
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August 3rd, 2016 at 11:33:09 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Well let's take a look at an average example...

Avg Bet = $5
Hands Per Hour = 70
Hours Played = 4 (one session from one day)
House Edge ~ -.5%, but they'll rate you higher than that as on average most people do not know basic strategy. I've seen rating as high as 5%. Avg I'll say is 2%.

EL = TotalWagered*HouseEdge = (NumHands*AvgBet)*HouseEdge = (280*5)*(-.02) = -$28

Comp = |EL| * (.20) = 28*(.20) = $5.60.

So in this scenario, a $5 better will get about $5.60 per hour back in comps, assuming they typically play 4 hour sessions at 70 hands per hour, with a typical average player rating. If you're a known "good" basic strategy player, your HE will be lower... Maybe .5% or maybe 1%.



It looks to me like you need to divide that $5.60 by 4 to get the per hour comp amount since you used 280 hands instead of the 70 per hour.
Order from chaos
Romes
Romes
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August 3rd, 2016 at 11:45:25 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

It looks to me like you need to divide that $5.60 by 4 to get the per hour comp amount since you used 280 hands instead of the 70 per hour.

Quite right. I brushed right past that now didn't I. At least I did point out it was $5.60 for a 4 hour session =P... breaking down to about $1.40/hour.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
DRich
DRich
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August 3rd, 2016 at 11:55:56 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Quite right. I brushed right past that now didn't I. At least I did point out it was $5.60 for a 4 hour session =P... breaking down to about $1.40/hour.



Yes, we are very close. I usually use 60 hands per hour as my average. In any case 25% of your average bet works out as a pretty good estimation.
Order from chaos
billryan
billryan
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August 3rd, 2016 at 12:21:42 PM permalink
The El Cortez does give about $1.50 an hour in comps for $5 players. Doesn't seem to matter if you are one on one or at a full table.
I used to play their $3 table, spreading $3-10, and get $6-$10 for a four or five hour jaunt. When they went to $5 minimum the comps stayed the same.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
LostWages
LostWages
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August 3rd, 2016 at 1:55:01 PM permalink
Tks, Bill. I'm replying not only to your post, but I'm also acknowledging all the posters just before you who clarified my questions about how BJ comps are calculated - I have a better idea now of what's involved. I'm way at the bottom of the totem pole of low stakes players, so I have no complaints. I will enjoy posting my trip report in late October 2016.

At least I know I'm playing primarily for recreation, secondly to win SOME hands (maybe even breakeven), and then get a small dash of comps in a sandwich or buffet after 5 days of play to sweeten the ending. If I lose consistently, then that will be my signal to learn Basic Strategy before a return trip next year! I might even consider card counting, but Basic Strategy first.

Best of all, after about 4 trips to Vegas over 10 years, this will be my first time to join my wife at the table, so she should be delighted at that. She doesn't play with any strategy, not even WOO's Simple Strategy. Perhaps my real reward will be impressing her and comforting her as a table partner. She has no idea of how many hours I've been practicing on WOO's BJ Game & Trainer!

Cheers to all!
Eat real food . . . and you won't need medicine (or a lot less!)

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