Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
• Posts: 5556
August 3rd, 2016 at 7:53:13 AM permalink
Quote: LostWages

Aloha, Jim!

I am hoping you might comment or evaluate the "play" I plan to try on my first trip to a blackjack table this coming Oct 2016. We are booked at The Cal, so I checked the WOO's survey to find out there are 15ea 2-deck tables w/\$5 min, dealer hits on S17, no DAS, no RSA, no SURR, no CSM, no party pit, no 6/5 BJ, no video, and HE 0.60225.

As a novice, I will probably flat \$5. I have memorized the WOO's Simple Strategy card, but I'm not yet ready for the full Basic Strategy (but I printed out the cards for S17 and H17 anyway).

I have a small buy-in session of \$80/day over 5 days.

Would you kindly show me the calculations to evaluate my "play"?

I read and re-read your post here, but some of the terms/info are above my head based on my current experience at the table (none, that is).

Hello lost wages. You haven't given us enough information =). The casino likes to know how much you bet and how long you play for. You can flat bet \$5, but if you play for 1 hour per day or 10 hours per day that's going to be a BIG difference in your comps!

Here's the general formula for comps... Comp = ExpectedLoss*(.20), where Expected Loss = TotalWagered*HouseEdge, where TotalWagered = NumHands*AvgBet.

So in the end we need to know the number of hands you're going to play (can estimate from time played), your average bet (flat \$5), and the house edge (which they will put you higher than the min, especially if you don't even yet know basic strategy). So all we need is an estimate of how many hours you plan to play per day!
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
gamerfreak
Joined: Dec 28, 2014
• Posts: 3393
August 3rd, 2016 at 10:11:15 AM permalink
I was about to make a post similar to this, but for table games in general.

There's a particular property where I feel I get rated significantly higher playing 3CP compared to other games. And I think it's because I only play ante/play but I get rated as if I'm playing pairs+ and six card bonus like every other player.
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
• Posts: 8740
August 3rd, 2016 at 11:04:36 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Hello lost wages. You haven't given us enough information =). The casino likes to know how much you bet and how long you play for. You can flat bet \$5, but if you play for 1 hour per day or 10 hours per day that's going to be a BIG difference in your comps!

Here's the general formula for comps... Comp = ExpectedLoss*(.20), where Expected Loss = TotalWagered*HouseEdge, where TotalWagered = NumHands*AvgBet.

So in the end we need to know the number of hands you're going to play (can estimate from time played), your average bet (flat \$5), and the house edge (which they will put you higher than the min, especially if you don't even yet know basic strategy). So all we need is an estimate of how many hours you plan to play per day!

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A \$5 player will get about \$1.25 in comps per hour.
Order from chaos
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
• Posts: 5556
August 3rd, 2016 at 11:19:05 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A \$5 player will get about \$1.25 in comps per hour.

Well let's take a look at an average example...

Avg Bet = \$5
Hands Per Hour = 70
Hours Played = 4 (one session from one day)
House Edge ~ -.5%, but they'll rate you higher than that as on average most people do not know basic strategy. I've seen rating as high as 5%. Avg I'll say is 2%.

EL = TotalWagered*HouseEdge = (NumHands*AvgBet)*HouseEdge = (280*5)*(-.02) = -\$28

Comp = |EL| * (.20) = 28*(.20) = \$5.60.

So in this scenario, a \$5 better will get about \$5.60 per hour back in comps, assuming they typically play 4 hour sessions at 70 hands per hour, with a typical average player rating. If you're a known "good" basic strategy player, your HE will be lower... Maybe .5% or maybe 1%.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
• Posts: 3616
August 3rd, 2016 at 11:20:53 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

I still think the simplest generalization for blackjack players is comps will be about 25% of your average bet for every hour you play.

A \$5 player will get about \$1.25 in comps per hour.

I have read, for several years here now, explanations of generalizations of hypothetical computations used by some/many/all casino operations to award comps. None of the explanations, well almost none, have ever even come close to being in the same universe as my experience in terms of comps. Admittedly my exposure has been pretty limited in terms of the number of facilities that I have been able to play at (wife has me on short leash).

However, at the risk of repeating myself, I read the explanations. I understand the terms. I can find little or no, closer to no, correlation between what has been methodically and often intricately explained and my personal experience. Almost none.

Sometimes they love me, some times they love me not.
How many petals are on a sunflower anyway ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
• Posts: 8740
August 3rd, 2016 at 11:33:09 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Well let's take a look at an average example...

Avg Bet = \$5
Hands Per Hour = 70
Hours Played = 4 (one session from one day)
House Edge ~ -.5%, but they'll rate you higher than that as on average most people do not know basic strategy. I've seen rating as high as 5%. Avg I'll say is 2%.

EL = TotalWagered*HouseEdge = (NumHands*AvgBet)*HouseEdge = (280*5)*(-.02) = -\$28

Comp = |EL| * (.20) = 28*(.20) = \$5.60.

So in this scenario, a \$5 better will get about \$5.60 per hour back in comps, assuming they typically play 4 hour sessions at 70 hands per hour, with a typical average player rating. If you're a known "good" basic strategy player, your HE will be lower... Maybe .5% or maybe 1%.

It looks to me like you need to divide that \$5.60 by 4 to get the per hour comp amount since you used 280 hands instead of the 70 per hour.
Order from chaos
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
• Posts: 5556
August 3rd, 2016 at 11:45:25 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

It looks to me like you need to divide that \$5.60 by 4 to get the per hour comp amount since you used 280 hands instead of the 70 per hour.

Quite right. I brushed right past that now didn't I. At least I did point out it was \$5.60 for a 4 hour session =P... breaking down to about \$1.40/hour.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
DRich
Joined: Jul 6, 2012
• Posts: 8740
August 3rd, 2016 at 11:55:56 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Quite right. I brushed right past that now didn't I. At least I did point out it was \$5.60 for a 4 hour session =P... breaking down to about \$1.40/hour.

Yes, we are very close. I usually use 60 hands per hour as my average. In any case 25% of your average bet works out as a pretty good estimation.
Order from chaos
billryan
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
• Posts: 13347
August 3rd, 2016 at 12:21:42 PM permalink
The El Cortez does give about \$1.50 an hour in comps for \$5 players. Doesn't seem to matter if you are one on one or at a full table.
I used to play their \$3 table, spreading \$3-10, and get \$6-\$10 for a four or five hour jaunt. When they went to \$5 minimum the comps stayed the same.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
LostWages
Joined: May 6, 2013