Cromwell's Las Vegas
But, I would play it if I had an edge (unlikely to happen, though)
Quote: kwhoughtonJust got back from Vegas. Although I was staying downtown, I drove up to the Strip to see the new 500 ft. Ferris Wheel. While there, I went to take a look at the new Cromwell's casino. (used to be Bill's, before that Barbary coast). I walked to every "blackjack" table on the main floor, and without exception, all were paying 6 to 5 on a blackjack. And, it is all over the strip. One of the dealers downtown said you would think that the Gaming Commission would stop this from happening. I mean Blackjack "as designed", pays 3 to 2 on a BJ. Now that they have the odds up to around 3% in the favor of the house, perhaps next they will take out a couple of the Aces from the deck also. I guess that would be okay. I couldn't believe the number of people playing at theses tables. Does this 6 to 5 thing bother anyone on this forum? Will you continue playing if it ends up that way at all the casino's. I suppose in 10 years the new players won't know the difference. Even the Indian Casino's in California that have a captive audience pay 3 to 2.
The Indian casinos in CA have tons of competition (from each other).
There is lots of 3:2 blackjack on the strip. The rumors of its demise have been grossly exaggerated, mostly by Buzzard.
>There is lots of 3:2 blackjack on the strip. The rumors of its demise have been grossly exaggerated, mostly by Buzzard.
That may well be true, but irrespective of various complaints 6:5 remains annoyingly common and darn difficult to beat.
I recently played at the Seminole Hard Rock and I was so "out of it" that I didn't even realize when I got these lousy two dollar chips or whatever that it was 6:5.
As far as Cromwells or Bill's goes, it will always be the Barbary Coast to me, the only casino that ever frisked me and the place where the cashier asked if I wanted a security escort to my car as I left with my last dollar!
Quote: kwhoughtonJust got back from Vegas. Although I was staying downtown, I drove up to the Strip to see the new 500 ft. Ferris Wheel. While there, I went to take a look at the new Cromwell's casino. (used to be Bill's, before that Barbary coast). I walked to every "blackjack" table on the main floor, and without exception, all were paying 6 to 5 on a blackjack. And, it is all over the strip. One of the dealers downtown said you would think that the Gaming Commission would stop this from happening. I mean Blackjack "as designed", pays 3 to 2 on a BJ. Now that they have the odds up to around 3% in the favor of the house, perhaps next they will take out a couple of the Aces from the deck also. I guess that would be okay. I couldn't believe the number of people playing at theses tables. Does this 6 to 5 thing bother anyone on this forum? Will you continue playing if it ends up that way at all the casino's. I suppose in 10 years the new players won't know the difference. Even the Indian Casino's in California that have a captive audience pay 3 to 2.
I turn down games that others would play so I would never, ever play that game. Furthermore, I refuse to call it blackjack.
It's not just Vegas. When I was in Atlantic City the other day, I did a little blackjack survey. I counted a dozen 6 to 5 H17 eight deck games at Harrah's of all places. Some were intermingled with the 3 to 2 games. Now why would they do that?
Quote: kwhoughtonJust got back from Vegas. Although I was staying downtown, I drove up to the Strip to see the new 500 ft. Ferris Wheel. While there, I went to take a look at the new Cromwell's casino. (used to be Bill's, before that Barbary coast). I walked to every "blackjack" table on the main floor, and without exception, all were paying 6 to 5 on a blackjack. And, it is all over the strip. One of the dealers downtown said you would think that the Gaming Commission would stop this from happening. I mean Blackjack "as designed", pays 3 to 2 on a BJ. Now that they have the odds up to around 3% in the favor of the house, perhaps next they will take out a couple of the Aces from the deck also. I guess that would be okay. I couldn't believe the number of people playing at theses tables. Does this 6 to 5 thing bother anyone on this forum? Will you continue playing if it ends up that way at all the casino's. I suppose in 10 years the new players won't know the difference. Even the Indian Casino's in California that have a captive audience pay 3 to 2.
As for competition, it's simply what the market - and the strip casinos - can afford bear. Off-strip casinos with lower expenses offer plenty of 3:2 Blackjack.
As for that being usury, the house edge on 6:5 is between 1.4% to 2.0% with WOO's BJ calculator, better than just about any other card game except for UTH or Heads Up Hold 'em, where you have to bet 4 units on average.
As for the Gaming commission finding this level of house edge to be unreasonable, it isn't unreasonable, so not a chance they'd stop it from happening; it went down with their blessing ten years ago. They also approve of mandatory high-edge side bets on low-limit games. (I've written at least one of the "mandatory side bet" gaming requests for NGBC approval with math lab report showing the new composite house edge, with the argument that not only is it within Nevada HE limits, it's the only way to offer a low-limit game that is viable.)
If casinos can't afford to offer the public 3:2 Blackjack, they won't. And casinos argue that because you can't stop all card-counting, - they have to do it, just to pay the bills.
Quote: PaigowdanAnd casinos argue that because you can't stop all card-counting, - they have to do it, just to pay the bills.
If that is the best excuse they can come up with then I now understand what types run casinos in Vegas......
Pity I will soon have to work for them again :(
Quote: TomspurIf that is the best excuse they can come up with then I now understand what types run casinos in Vegas......
Pity I will soon have to work for them again :(
I'm sure if they could afford 3:2 BJ in the modern environment, they'd gladly do it, just to get a lead over the competition.
Quote: PaigowdanI'm sure if they could afford 3:2 BJ in the modern environment, they'd gladly do it, just to get a lead over the competition.
In my opinion, the best way of earning more money is increasing the drop, not squeezing an already tight game. If you have a full casino or even jus the illusion of one, then you will get overflow to other games with much higher HE's.
I know what you are saying but I don't think the pro's here outweigh the cons. Perhaps we need to give the 6/5 a chance to work through the system, perhaps one full quarter for the casinos to see if it has any effect on their blackjack drops compared to last year?
Luckily BJ drops stay relatively flat because there isn't crazy swings like there is in Baccarat drops.
Quote: 1BBI turn down games that others would play so I would never, ever play that game. Furthermore, I refuse to call it blackjack.
It's not just Vegas. When I was in Atlantic City the other day, I did a little blackjack survey. I counted a dozen 6 to 5 H17 eight deck games at Harrah's of all places. Some were intermingled with the 3 to 2 games. Now why would they do that?
I've heard it called fakejack.
The same thing happens with video poker if you want to play nickels instead of dollars. It's just how the game is played. The same machine has different payback percentages for different denominations.
The transparency for the cost to play a lower limit game being more similar to the cost of playing a higher limit game might improve. But costs are costs are costs. It's not like a casino could stay in business offering 3:2 payout with $1 minimums and still give out free drinks. It might be fair to only condemn casinos that offer no 3:2 tables at all (EG: not even in the high limits rooms). But casinos that offer lower limits to less experienced gamblers should be expected to raise the edge to meet the demands of their overhead.
Quote: GWAEI would guarantee that the average player 1. doesn't look at what BJ pays prior to playing and 2. doesn't have a clue what the difference is. I mean after all, they are still getting paid more than 1:1 on a BJ.
I don't think you're giving the public enough credit with the resources that are at everyone's fingertips today. On a single deck game, 6 to 5 adds a whopping 1.39% to the house edge.
A thought that might occur to you but many blackjack players couldn't figure that out correctly if they were offered ten grand for the correct answer. Many blackjack players are more interested in the 1.39 percent more cleavage of the dealer and the 1.39 percent stiffer drinks coming to them in 1.39 percent less time.Quote: 1BBI don't think you're giving the public enough credit with the resources that are at everyone's fingertips today. On a single deck game, 6 to 5 adds a whopping 1.39% to the house edge.
Not much flattery to players perhaps but I'm sure you've heard the term Ploppies. And besides,,, once the casino turns on the oxygen for them, the player will make that 1.39 percent back, anyway because tonight is their lucky night.
Quote: FleaStiffA thought that might occur to you but many blackjack players couldn't figure that out correctly if they were offered ten grand for the correct answer. Many blackjack players are more interested in the 1.39 percent more cleavage of the dealer and the 1.39 percent stiffer drinks coming to them in 1.39 percent less time.
Not much flattery to players perhaps but I'm sure you've heard the term Ploppies. And besides,,, once the casino turns on the oxygen for them, the player will make that 1.39 percent back, anyway because tonight is their lucky night.
Good points as usual, Flea. I am familiar with the term ploppy. I tend not to use it because I am a ploppy at so many things in life. Did you know that the term was coined by our own Frank S?
Quote: 1BBI don't think you're giving the public enough credit with the resources that are at everyone's fingertips today. On a single deck game, 6 to 5 adds a whopping 1.39% to the house edge.Quote: GWAEI would guarantee that the average player 1. doesn't look at what BJ pays prior to playing and 2. doesn't have a clue what the difference is. I mean after all, they are still getting paid more than 1:1 on a BJ.
I very rarely play blackjack any more if there is a craps table operating. (I am not a counter, which is quite obvious, I guess.) I do recall that just a couple of years ago I sat down at a BJ table (don't remember the situation), and, just as GWAE suggested, I did not even look at what a blackjack paid. I didn't notice until I was dealt a blackjack and received the short payout. There the info was, right on the table, and I had missed it. I just got up and went to play somewhere else. No sense in playing that game.
Quote: 1BBI don't think you're giving the public enough credit with the resources that are at everyone's fingertips today. On a single deck game, 6 to 5 adds a whopping 1.39% to the house edge.
Oh I think I am. If that were the case the general public would not be playing any of the commercial slot machines.
Quote: PaigowdanAs for competition, it's simply what the market - and the strip casinos - can afford bear.
it's the only way to offer a low-limit game that is viable
If casinos can't afford to offer the public 3:2 Blackjack, they won't.
you can't stop all card-counting, - they have to do it, just to pay the bills.
I'm sure if they could afford 3:2 BJ in the modern environment, they'd gladly do it
I love how you nonchalantly drop in all those "take it for granted" non-truths. Poor casinos indeed, boo-hoo.
Alright, 6:5 may be a good business decision, and the casinos are entitled to run their business as they see fit. I don't argue that at all.
But, We The Players don't have to like it and we should push back. This will not result in the casinos going broke and Vegas going bankrupt. It may result in casinos feeling the pushback and changing their business decision. (If (loss from offering 3:2 over 6:5) < (loss from players rejection and bad publicity))
It may be a comforting (or rather lazy?) thought to think "Oh well, the poor casinos don't have any choice but to reduce blackjack payouts, they are doing the best they can do, so I might as well accept it and play it." But it is also very wrong. The question a good casino manager needs to ask to keep their job is "What is the highest amount of money I can make?" rather than "What are the best odds I can offer to the players and barely stay in business?" And if people accept 6:5 they will offer it, no matter how much money they make - why make less than you can?
So please, everyone, let's not worry about poor Sheldon and Steve too much, let's worry about how we can make it as difficult as possible for the casinos to squeeze that extra dollar out of us. It is called metagaming - let's play!
Quote: PokeraddictI found several 3-2 tables at Cromwell that pay 3-2 just outside of high limit alon. The front pit is all 6-5 as are a few other tables.
I was just about to say this. I believe there were 2 3-2 tables operating on the main floor when I visited. $15 minimums.
Quote: AhighOnce you get to $25 tables in the high limit room, it's 3:2 at CZR properties. 6:5 is just for $5, $10, and $15 tables. The 10 days ago, a Harrah's employee in the high limit room told me there was a blackjack tounament going on and there were $25 tables on the main floor also paying 3:2 just for the occasion of the tournament players who demanded it.
The same thing happens with video poker if you want to play nickels instead of dollars. It's just how the game is played. The same machine has different payback percentages for different denominations.
The transparency for the cost to play a lower limit game being more similar to the cost of playing a higher limit game might improve. But costs are costs are costs. It's not like a casino could stay in business offering 3:2 payout with $1 minimums and still give out free drinks. It might be fair to only condemn casinos that offer no 3:2 tables at all (EG: not even in the high limits rooms). But casinos that offer lower limits to less experienced gamblers should be expected to raise the edge to meet the demands of their overhead.
Good post.
Quote: CanyoneroI love how you nonchalantly drop in all those "take it for granted" non-truths. Poor casinos indeed, boo-hoo.
Alright, 6:5 may be a good business decision, and the casinos are entitled to run their business as they see fit. I don't argue that at all.
But, We The Players don't have to like it and we should push back. This will not result in the casinos going broke and Vegas going bankrupt. It may result in casinos feeling the pushback and changing their business decision. (If (loss from offering 3:2 over 6:5) < (loss from players rejection and bad publicity))
It may be a comforting (or rather lazy?) thought to think "Oh well, the poor casinos don't have any choice but to reduce blackjack payouts, they are doing the best they can do, so I might as well accept it and play it." But it is also very wrong. The question a good casino manager needs to ask to keep their job is "What is the highest amount of money I can make?" rather than "What are the best odds I can offer to the players and barely stay in business?" And if people accept 6:5 they will offer it, no matter how much money they make - why make less than you can?
So please, everyone, let's not worry about poor Sheldon and Steve too much, let's worry about how we can make it as difficult as possible for the casinos to squeeze that extra dollar out of us. It is called metagaming - let's play!
All right then, let me clarify these real story truths for you:
1. Push back by opening your own 3:2 Blackjack casinos and see how viable and profitable it is for you. YOU too will be asking "What is the highest amount of money I can make" and offer 6:5 Blackjack as much as you can.
2. Write Sheldon and Steve some letters on behalf of We The Players. See what they say.
3. Take your business to the Boulder Strip, Henderson, and elsewhere.
4. Play some Craps, Poker, and Baccarat if Blackjack is giving you problems.
Quote: CasinoCityTimes, quoting press release by CZR
...
The new player-friendly gaming amenities are as follows:
Single 0 Roulette – Also known as European roulette and previously found primarily in high-limit areas only, The Cromwell now has this table game on the main casino floor and with approachable table limits.
EZ Baccarat - Played the same way as traditional baccarat, EZ Baccarat is among the most popular baccarat games worldwide. While the drawing rules are unchanged, EZ Baccarat eliminates the taking of the 5% commission after every winning Bank hand.
3-2 Shoe and Double-Deck Blackjack – With affordable table limits among the lowest minimum bets on the Strip, blackjack at The Cromwell brings back classic Vegas gaming.
100X Odds on Craps – For those who like to roll the bones, The Cromwell now offers a super-generous 100x odd on craps with accessible table limits.
Other sites are saying that limits on the 3:2 tables are $10 during the week and $15 on weekends. I am betting for Double Deck it's 15 / 25.
Another release says that the HE is .64% for the $10/$15 CSM and .52% for the 15/25 DD.
For that .64% game, that would probably mean no resplitting of Aces and no Surrender. For the .52% Double deck I am not sure of the conditions that make up this set, but I would imagine it would be the same game which puts it at .46%
Observers are saying that 20 tables are setup for 3:2 blackjack.
Quote: boymimboAnother member mentioned they were staying at the Cromwell and asked about Blackjack and stumbled on this from Casino City Times:
Other sites are saying that limits on the 3:2 tables are $10 during the week and $15 on weekends. I am betting for Double Deck it's 15 / 25.
Another release says that the HE is .64% for the $10/$15 CSM and .52% for the 15/25 DD.
For that .64% game, that would probably mean no resplitting of Aces and no Surrender. For the .52% Double deck I am not sure of the conditions that make up this set, but I would imagine it would be the same game which puts it at .46%
Observers are saying that 20 tables are setup for 3:2 blackjack.
Very useful, thanks for finding this!
Drink service is also very good at Cromwell.
Quote: ams288I walked through a couple days ago and the shoe games were $10 and DD was $15.
Drink service is also very good at Cromwell.
Agreed. Hard to believe CZR actually owns this place.
Quote: BozAgreed. Hard to believe CZR actually owns this place.
Don't tell them that!
That said, they attract the lowest quality of gamblers. I'd rather play with people at the Flamingo next door (Paris is my current haunt). This was also the place that I got rack jacked ($100 chip that was repaid). I've gone back a few times and have made the decision that I will not patronize them anymore other than a hit-and-run attempt at 100x odds.
Its been a while since I have been in there. Has anyone noticed if this is still the case?
Quote: ahiromuThis was also the place that I got rack jacked ($100 chip that was repaid).
Can you flesh this story out a bit more? How much of a stink could you have made to get any money back?
Walked in there when looking for $5 tables two years ago while checking out the pedestrian walk and High Roller from the ground.
Quote: HowManyI have never played 6:5 blackjack.
But, I would play it if I had an edge (unlikely to happen, though)
I got on a 6:5 table unknowingly, once, and I doubled my blackjack and won and left.
Quote: HornHighYo11Can you flesh this story out a bit more? How much of a stink could you have made to get any money back?
Walked in there when looking for $5 tables two years ago while checking out the pedestrian walk and High Roller from the ground.
Very little stink. They knew there was a problem, floor told me they have it handled and requested the thief not leave. He, for some reason, did not leave. After 20m or so 4-5 very large security guys surrounded him and had a conversation. I only heard tidbits, but they had video of him stealing a chip from my rack and I think gave him two options. Give me $100 or call Metro. Said thief personally handed me four green chips and was escorted out.
I can't fathom a world where they didn't arrest him, backroom him, get his ID/info and put him in all the databases of "undesirables" ... you know, like they would have done if he was a simple card counter playing legally.Quote: ahiromuVery little stink. They knew there was a problem, floor told me they have it handled and requested the thief not leave. He, for some reason, did not leave. After 20m or so 4-5 very large security guys surrounded him and had a conversation. I only heard tidbits, but they had video of him stealing a chip from my rack and I think gave him two options. Give me $100 or call Metro. Said thief personally handed me four green chips and was escorted out.
