Opinions on this Issue
Quote: geoffKind of. The Indian nations don't have jurisdiction over non-indians so they can't go crazy and lock you up forever or anything. If they were to confiscate your belongings for some crime (real or otherwise) then trying to get it back will be one hell of a battle.
I think that the bottom line is that any criminal proceedings will go through state courts but for anything civil you are SOL. If they decide that card counting is cheating, and confiscate your chips and your cash, there is not a lot you can do about it.
Even if they rough you up, you can try to get the state to go after them for assault, but you can't sue them or the casino for damages, so fat lot of good that does you. In the case that Bob N talked about, he said that he did get a settlement for one of his clients, but it was much smaller than he would wanted to accept from a non-Indian casino. Both sides were well aware that is was not clear that real courts had any jurisdiction.
There are more than enough other properties out there that you can hit without having to worry about Sovereignty or some such things :)
NO NO NO. If its good enough take a chance just be careful.Quote: TomspurPlain and simple, don't play in Indian Casinos if you are going to AP at all. :)
Quote: SonuvabishI don't agree with this attitude at all. There might be a little bit of a riskier side for a high roller, which I am not. But in general, it is the same. They cannot confiscate your cash or chips. That is not a civil matter, that is stealing. It is a criminal issue. And you don't go after the sovereign entity, you go after the individual who did it. Any casino can illegally confiscate your property and claim it never did. Any casino is more powerful than you are. I would agree that civil suits against Indian casinos tend to be lower than a state casino, due to the way things are set up. Thing is, I don't plan on getting into any legal battles with any casino, so I would never factor that in to my choice.
Of course they can take your cash and chips. They just say that you were cheating. They are the sole arbiters of what constitutes "cheating". You can't sue to get them back (not in a real court, anyway). You can complain to the police, but without evidence what are they going to do about it?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOf course they can take your cash and chips. They just say that you were cheating. They are the sole arbiters of what constitutes "cheating". You can't sue to get them back (not in a real court, anyway). You can complain to the police, but without evidence what are they going to do about it?
I wouldn't hand them my wallet nor ask them to hold my chips for me. If they wanted to rob me, they would have to physically subdue me and prevent me from escaping. I am not going to disagree that this type of conduct is perhaps slightly more likely in an Indian casino than a state run casino, but it is all around highly unlikely. I would also say it is slightly more likely to occur in a casino located in a rural area rather than in a metropolitan area, as most Indian casinos are. I would go so far to say it has more to do with location than anything else. On top of that, Indian casinos are not filled with Apache savages. Plenty of normal people working in them, and playing in them, who would be aghast if they were robbing their patrons. And there's no reason why a state-run casino couldn't do the same thing as you describe. Indian sovereignty does not give them power to commit crimes. You're talking about corruption, and implying it doesn't exist outside of Indian territory.
If this happens in an Indian casino, you cannot claim that you were not cheating and get your money back -- they decide what is and isn't cheating. If they rough you up, you cannot sue them. Criminal charges might be filed, but it is unlikely, and, even if it happens, it doesn't help you, and the fact that it is unlikely means that it doesn't act as a deterrent. In the well-known cases where APs (eg Grosjean) were roughed up by casino security in Nevada, I don't believe that criminal charges were filed -- the only recourse was civil.
Again, these are not hypotheticals. These are things that have actually happened, in both Indian and non-Indian casinos. The difference is that when they happen in non-Indian casinos, you have some recourse.
I am not suggesting that they are going around robbing or roughing up ploppies. They don't need to rob ploppies to get their money -- the ploppies give their money to the casino freely.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe difference is that in a Nevada casino, if you are hole-carding and get caught (which happens) and the casino decides that they consider that cheating (which has happened) and they confiscate your winnings (which has happened), you can go to court and a judge can say that this is not cheating (which has also happened). If they rough you up you can sue them and get a lot of money (which has also happened).
If this happens in an Indian casino, you cannot claim that you were not cheating and get your money back -- they decide what is and isn't cheating. If they rough you up, you cannot sue them. Criminal charges might be filed, but it is unlikely, and, even if it happens, it doesn't help you, and the fact that it is unlikely means that it doesn't act as a deterrent. In the well-known cases where APs (eg Grosjean) were roughed up by casino security in Nevada, I don't believe that criminal charges were filed -- the only recourse was civil.
Again, these are not hypotheticals. These are things that have actually happened, in both Indian and non-Indian casinos. The difference is that when they happen in non-Indian casinos, you have some recourse.
I am not suggesting that they are going around robbing or roughing up ploppies. They don't need to rob ploppies to get their money -- the ploppies give their money to the casino freely.
Well, I wouldn't want to argue with as fervently on the hole-carding issue. All casinos get PO'ed bad about that. And they will do whatever they can get away with; they do like to think of it as cheating. I don't hole-card, it is a non-issue. A counter, cover or no, is not the same thing. I don't think it really happens to any significant degree, and they know they would have no excuse for it.
Whether criminal charges are filed or not, stealing is a crime. And if I deem that a crime is being committed or attempted against me, I will respond appropriately. To put it another way, no one will confiscate anything without difficulty, and resistance may deter a perpetrator.
What I was saying is that it is clearly wrong to confiscate someone's money, regardless of the strategy they used. There's going to be people who know that.
As far as trying to defend yourself... really? What are you going to do when you are tackled and restrained by several large armed guards? Are you armed when you go to a casino? Even if you were, I doubt that it would help you.
If a dealer is being sloppy and exposing a hole card, are you really not going to make use of that information? If you know that the dealer has a 6 in the hole along with a 5 up, are you really going to double that 9? I'm not suggesting that you go out and scout dealers and get specially made glasses or eyedrops, but if the opportunity fell into your lap, wouldn't you take advantage of it?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI would not be THAT surprised if an Indian casino decided that card counting was "cheating" and treated it the same as hole-carding. PaiGowDan repeatedly refers to card counting as cheating and he worked in Nevada casinos. It is not uncommon to hear people refer to counting as cheating. I am not saying that it would happen, just that it could happen and the important point is that, unlike at a Nevada casino, if it happens you have no recourse.
As far as trying to defend yourself... really? What are you going to do when you are tackled and restrained by several large armed guards? Are you armed when you go to a casino? Even if you were, I doubt that it would help you.
If a dealer is being sloppy and exposing a hole card, are you really not going to make use of that information? If you know that the dealer has a 6 in the hole along with a 5 up, are you really going to double that 9? I'm not suggesting that you go out and scout dealers and get specially made glasses or eyedrops, but if the opportunity fell into your lap, wouldn't you take advantage of it?
I would be surprised if they did this. I agree generally with your statements that people often colloquially refer to card counting as cheating. However, I think you overrate Indian sovereignty. Entering Indian territory is more like crossing county borders than national ones. Perhaps more like a state border than either. Their sovereignty is abrogated to such an extent that they are not sovereign in the strictest sense.
I am no fighter, I would not be daring people to tackle me. I imagine to illicitly rob me, they would want to do it as discreetly as possible--even if they rationalized it was not morally ambiguous at best. I would not resist arrest, but your path of logic is not one I am taking. Yes, I carry mace. I do so not in anticipation of theft by casino employees, but to ward off an assault from a degenerate ploppy, should the need arise.
Of course I would use hole-card information. When the dealer is beyond weak and a dozen people are doing the same thing all day, the casino isn't going to be mad at the player for it. I am not attacking pro hole-carders. My lack of proficiency makes it a non-issue, not my lack of desire to find a larger edge any way I can. It does seem pretty close to cheating though, so it doesn't surprise me when a casino steps over the line in stopping this type of play.
There is more bureaucracy to deal with when an issue arises with an Indian casino, and less reward. So therefore, an Indian casino may be more likely to break a rule or go farther into the wrong. This I could believe, and maybe debate the significance of the differences, which I think would be pretty insignificant in card counting. But the implications that an Indian casino is allowed to do whatever it wants, as a rule, I reject.
Quote: SonuvabishEntering Indian territory is more like crossing county borders than national ones.
The difference is that if I cross county lines I can still sue someone who wrongs me. If an Indian casino wrongs you you can take them to tribal court. Good luck with that.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe difference is that if I cross county lines I can still sue someone who wrongs me. If an Indian casino wrongs you you can take them to tribal court. Good luck with that.
That's a bit out of context. I basically said their power ranking is between county and state.
