Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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February 22nd, 2014 at 9:07:43 PM permalink
I was reading some stuff written by JSTAT, who claims to have a count for beating mini-bac. I'm not sure exactly what pertained to what, but essentially I was interested in his reference to asymmetry, as it was similar to an early thread I posted about taking insurance when the count is 0 just because all the cards that came out that hand were non 10s.
Assume you use hi-lo. Say somehow you have absolute knowledge that more 9s came out than 7s, or more threes than fives. You don't know how many. Is this information useful in any practical way?
geoff
geoff
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February 22nd, 2014 at 10:45:51 PM permalink
I haven't heard of any way to count a baccarat game. It may exist, but I doubt it. The reason why counting cards work in blackjack is that some cards are better for the player than they are the dealer. With baccarat the first two cards are essentially equally valuable to both parties so the value in the count would come from the third card. If someone has a baccarat sim and finds when the player gets a certain value for the third card they win or lose more then keeping a side count could become useful.
24Bingo
24Bingo
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February 22nd, 2014 at 11:08:25 PM permalink
It can't exist. Someone wrote a simulation that could work out the edge for each bet with a perfect knowledge of the discards, and it would already require a greater spread than you'd be likely to manage in the real world.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
endermike
endermike
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February 23rd, 2014 at 7:14:20 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

I was reading some stuff written by JSTAT, who claims to have a count for beating mini-bac. I'm not sure exactly what pertained to what, but essentially I was interested in his reference to asymmetry, as it was similar to an early thread I posted about taking insurance when the count is 0 just because all the cards that came out that hand were non 10s.
Assume you use hi-lo. Say somehow you have absolute knowledge that more 9s came out than 7s, or more threes than fives. You don't know how many. Is this information useful in any practical way?



Some sort of insurance bet combined with counting the 6 deck shoe?
Is the insurance one of the ones listed here:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/baccarat/insurance/
dwheatley
dwheatley
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February 23rd, 2014 at 10:01:07 AM permalink
In theory the effect of card removal is not linear in Blackjack, so knowing that more 9s came out than 7s could be useful, especially if it was a lot more 9s, but I can't imagine the effect would be worth it compared to just counting with hi-lo.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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February 23rd, 2014 at 11:31:27 AM permalink
Guys, I don't care about baccarat. I'm just telling you how the question, which is a blackjack question, came into my mind. Since your inquiries have kind of taken over the thread, from what I understood, his method was to count for a particular side bet and it had something to do with 8s and 9s, and I assume, he bet the minimum on all the baccarat main hands. I didn't read too deeply, because I will not ever be playing baccarat. And I have no idea if his system works, nor do I care. However, he mentions asymmetry between 8s and 9s as part of his system. I found the asymmetry part interesting (that's the only part I found interesting), so I am asking if it has any application towards blackjack. Hypothetically, it does, you know a borderline 'no' insurance decision, you should take insurance when every card that comes out is a non-ten. But how often does that happen? Is there anyway to extract value from known asymmetry in the count?
rob45
rob45
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February 24th, 2014 at 7:16:16 AM permalink
Quote: Sonuvabish

Guys, I don't care about baccarat. I'm just telling you how the question, which is a blackjack question, came into my mind. Since your inquiries have kind of taken over the thread, from what I understood, his method was to count for a particular side bet and it had something to do with 8s and 9s, and I assume, he bet the minimum on all the baccarat main hands. I didn't read too deeply, because I will not ever be playing baccarat. And I have no idea if his system works, nor do I care. However, he mentions asymmetry between 8s and 9s as part of his system. I found the asymmetry part interesting (that's the only part I found interesting), so I am asking if it has any application towards blackjack. Hypothetically, it does, you know a borderline 'no' insurance decision, you should take insurance when every card that comes out is a non-ten. But how often does that happen? Is there anyway to extract value from known asymmetry in the count?

Use of the word "asymmetry" does very little to impress the knowledgeable individual.
Asymmetry is stating the lack of proportion. Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of all counting systems is to identify such a situation.

I understand your lack of interest in Baccarat, yet the counting system mentioned has caught your interest due to the mention of 8's and 9's. I can only assume the identification of 8's and 9's has peaked your interest due to the "insurance problem" in your other thread.

For those who are reading this thread because the mentioned count system was claimed to "work" for a particular Baccarat side bet, we might as well get this out of the way right now- those two cards (8 & 9) are indeed important to identify for the purposes of that particular side bet (Dragon 7); HOWEVER, that same system employs the same tag for "opposite" cards.
When considering effect of removal (EOR) of certain cards for purposes of identifying an advantageous situation, the system should be engineered to that effect for any level of acceptable efficiency.
If, for the Dragon 7 side bet, it benefits us to deplete the 8's and 9's while retaining those cards most likely to increase the possibility of a 3-card total of 7 (4-7), then we need to have the proper means of identifying and separating those groups.
Would someone please explain to me how a system that has an identical tag (-1) for 2-9 would accomplish this?
To make a long story short, the count system being discussed was not tailored for the bet in question; furthermore, I fail to see how it could even be considered viable for that particular use.

Now that we have addressed the "Baccarat issue", let's take a look at your real concern (Blackjack).
I will neither promote nor denigrate the mentioned count system.
All counting systems have inherent compromises; there is no free lunch.

In conclusion, it seems that use of the word "asymmetry" is nothing more than an effort to further promote a claim; however, we must have the understanding that discussion of a counting system of any type is naturally already discussing asymmetry.
We are using the count system to exploit a lack of proportion. The proportions with which we are most concerned determine which system is most beneficial to our needs.
Dicenor33
Dicenor33
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February 24th, 2014 at 7:43:36 AM permalink
Is there any parts of BJ play which remain unexplored, but baccarat leaves a lot of questions unanswered. When I play bac I do count, but my counting method has nothing to do with asymmetry or card removal. It's based solely on degree of cards being mixed up in a deck. I increase my bets if the deck is predictable or in other words I know which card will be next .
Sonuvabish
Sonuvabish
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February 24th, 2014 at 5:29:45 PM permalink
Quote: rob45

Use of the word "asymmetry" does very little to impress the knowledgeable individual.
Asymmetry is stating the lack of proportion. Unless I am mistaken, the purpose of all counting systems is to identify such a situation.

I understand your lack of interest in Baccarat, yet the counting system mentioned has caught your interest due to the mention of 8's and 9's. I can only assume the identification of 8's and 9's has peaked your interest due to the "insurance problem" in your other thread.

For those who are reading this thread because the mentioned count system was claimed to "work" for a particular Baccarat side bet, we might as well get this out of the way right now- those two cards (8 & 9) are indeed important to identify for the purposes of that particular side bet (Dragon 7); HOWEVER, that same system employs the same tag for "opposite" cards.
When considering effect of removal (EOR) of certain cards for purposes of identifying an advantageous situation, the system should be engineered to that effect for any level of acceptable efficiency.
If, for the Dragon 7 side bet, it benefits us to deplete the 8's and 9's while retaining those cards most likely to increase the possibility of a 3-card total of 7 (4-7), then we need to have the proper means of identifying and separating those groups.
Would someone please explain to me how a system that has an identical tag (-1) for 2-9 would accomplish this?
To make a long story short, the count system being discussed was not tailored for the bet in question; furthermore, I fail to see how it could even be considered viable for that particular use.

Now that we have addressed the "Baccarat issue", let's take a look at your real concern (Blackjack).
I will neither promote nor denigrate the mentioned count system.
All counting systems have inherent compromises; there is no free lunch.

In conclusion, it seems that use of the word "asymmetry" is nothing more than an effort to further promote a claim; however, we must have the understanding that discussion of a counting system of any type is naturally already discussing asymmetry.
We are using the count system to exploit a lack of proportion. The proportions with which we are most concerned determine which system is most beneficial to our needs.



Although you managed to identify the correct side-bet, I think all you did, if anything, was help people understand me less. In math, there's the 2nd derivative. I am referring to asymmetry within the system, not the system itself. 8s and 9s were not what I found interesting, he touched on a concept that he termed 'asymmetry' that I had previously thought about. I don't care to speculate on whether he thought this word was cool and thought it would make his system popular, it is simply the only reference that I have ever found by another possible AP that describes a concept that is at least related to what is not being discussed here. I am not ltrying to make a multi-parameter count out it, but I am looking to see if any tiny tweak could be made. I've only had I think one serious response that appeared to give the question some thought. Perhaps I need a simulator for a question like this.
AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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February 24th, 2014 at 8:06:54 PM permalink
Your OP was kind of nonsensical, to be honest.
Quote: Sonuvabish

Say somehow you have absolute knowledge that more 9s came out than 7s, or more threes than fives.


Somehow? What does that mean? If you're going to try to make use of this information, you have to have a plan to collect it. A side count, basically
Quote: Sonuvabish

Is this information useful in any practical way?


I doubt it. You can look at EORs to start with.
Quote: Sonuvabish

I am not ltrying to make a multi-parameter count out it, but I am looking to see if any tiny tweak could be made. I've only had I think one serious response that appeared to give the question some thought. Perhaps I need a simulator for a question like this.


Yes. Yes you do.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer

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