wudged
Joined: Aug 7, 2013
• Posts: 998
January 31st, 2014 at 8:06:53 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

I do not disagree that there is a house edge on the don't. Still, there are more combinations to a 7 than anything else so, the house is going to be paying more don't winners than pass winners.

According to none other than the Wizard, the pass line (49.29%) wins more often than the don't pass (47.93%) Taken from http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

Quote: Riva

If past posting was really an issue, it would seem like very craps table on the planet would have the don't pass 12" distant from the pass line.

Different houses have different rules. In the description of the video it also says there are signs stating setting the dice is not allowed. If setting the dice is really an issue, it would seem like every craps table on the planet would not allow setting.

Quote: Riva

And, if the don't come was such a splendid bet for the house, one would think they would dedicate more real estate to it on a layout. There is truth to the old craps adage, "the bigger the number, the dumber the bet". Think of the big 6 and 8 in both size and location. Now think don't come. There's a reason the house makes it the size of a postage stamp. And, that reason is that, all thing being equal, it really does not want you there.

I'm not saying the casino would rather you bet DP/DC over Big Red, I'm saying they have no reason to be afraid of you betting them. Why is the don't pass line almost the same size as the pass line then? Don't pass and Don't come are the exact same mathematically speaking. Why does the come bet typically take up the largest amount of space on the layout?
Alan
Joined: Jun 14, 2011
• Posts: 582
January 31st, 2014 at 8:30:59 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

According to none other than the Wizard, the pass line (49.29%) wins more often than the don't pass (47.93%) Taken from http://wizardofodds.com/games/craps/

That's only because of pushes. Pass bets can only be won or lost, there is no push. Look at probability of loss column.

wudged
Joined: Aug 7, 2013
• Posts: 998
January 31st, 2014 at 8:39:21 AM permalink
That doesn't change the fact that "the house is going to be paying more don't winners than pass winners" is incorrect.

However, the house will collect more losers on the pass line than on the don't pass.
Alan
Joined: Jun 14, 2011
• Posts: 582
January 31st, 2014 at 8:41:33 AM permalink
Quote: wudged

That doesn't change the fact that "the house is going to be paying more don't winners than pass winners" is incorrect.

Correct, I just wanted to throw in some clarification.
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
• Posts: 14484
January 31st, 2014 at 9:27:12 AM permalink
Quote: sodawater

They combined the DP and DC into one box, and they put it above the field.

Gives a narrower field of focus for the dealer but at least makes him check that DontBox all the time. Too many dealers can go a week without ever getting a Don't bet so they just become lazy....then along comes a shot taker.
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
• Posts: 449
January 31st, 2014 at 10:19:31 AM permalink
I had a custom layout made for our craps table that we use at our charity games. I purposely did not have the printer print a "don't come" betting spot. I did that mostly because it confuses our dealers which then slows down the game. And, since we don't allow odds, it's the same bet as a don't pass--which they can take down at any time.
wudged
Joined: Aug 7, 2013
• Posts: 998
January 31st, 2014 at 10:30:49 AM permalink
Allowing free odds doesn't make the DC different from the DP. That they are established on different box numbers at the same time is the only thing that makes them different.
Riva
Joined: Apr 3, 2013
• Posts: 449
January 31st, 2014 at 10:44:08 AM permalink
wudged..I think we are saying the same thing. My point is, since we pay 1:1 and don't allow odds anywhere, it's essentially the same bet. A lot of players gripe that we don't allow free odds however, it's done mostly to keep the game moving. there is no way on the planet our dealers are able to calculate true odds, place odds, lay odds on don't. We'd only get in 20 rolls per-night. That said, I am thinking as alternative to odds, to allow the player to simply press their bet. That, however, is an entirely different thread.
wudged
Joined: Aug 7, 2013
• Posts: 998
January 31st, 2014 at 10:52:06 AM permalink
Yes, they are the same mathematically. The way I read your post was that they are different bets if you allow laying free odds. Maybe what you meant is that the DP and DC with free odds laid could potentially pay out different if they both won at the same time.

In any case, I totally understand from your perspective about slowing down a charity game. Although, I thought I had read something you posted elsewhere on the site that you typically hire professional craps dealers instead of using volunteers? Even the pros mess it up from time to time, so I guess avoiding it altogether is still the best option.
AxiomOfChoice
Joined: Sep 12, 2012
• Posts: 5761
January 31st, 2014 at 11:10:41 AM permalink
Quote: Riva

First, at the end of the day, the house really does not want players on the don't. That's why they won't let a player make a don't pass bet after the come-out and, allow a player to take down a don't pass bet any time before a 7-out.

What???

The reason that you can't make a don't pass bet after a point is established is because it would be +EV. It would be a huge advantage play; with proper Kelly betting and high max bets you could turn even a small bankroll into a massive amount of money in a relatively short amount of time. Your edge would range from 9% to 33% on these bets.

The reason that you can take it down is the same -- it's +EV at that point, so they will happily let the suckers take their money back instead of letting the bet resolve.

Quote:

Second, for the same reason as above, they have physically separated the pass line from the don't pass/come unlike any layout I have EVER seen before. Oftentimes, players arbitrarily switch from pass to don't pass simply on a whim. After all, the don't pass is right there next to the pass. With this configuration, the house is hoping that "out of sight, out of mind". Quite clever, if you think about it. Anything for an edge!

What edge? The 0.01% difference in house edge between pass and don't pass? That is crazy. There is no significant difference in edge between betting pass and don't pass.