Charitable Gaming: BlackJack ?

As mentioned previously, I help run a charitable gaming event for a local school. Wagers typically run from $1-$10. We have 20 tables.
Dealers are volunteers. Below is the rules for the game that are posted at every table. Perhaps the biggest advantage the house has in our game is that we take all ties (except for ties on an a natural, which is paid 1:1). These rules have been in place for decades and frankly, some of them don't make sense to me.

Blackjack Rules

1. 7 players maximum per-table.

2. All players’ cards are dealt face up. Dealer’s first card is dealt face up and the second card is dealt face down. The deck is replaced with pre-shuffled cards when the “cut” card is reached.

3. Minimum/Maximum wager amounts are displayed on tables.

4. Dealer must stand on a “hard 17” or higher. Dealer must draw if he/she has 16 or less or a “soft 17”. Dealer must continue to deal cards until the total hand count is a “hard 17” or higher.

5. Dealer takes all ties, except when there is a “Blackjack” by both the dealer and player(s). There are no “pushes”. (See rule 8).

6. “Ace” can be counted as either a 1 or 11 for both the player and the dealer. The number is considered “soft” when the Ace is counted as one.

7. “Blackjack” occurs when the first two cards dealt to a player, or to the dealer, is an Ace plus any 10-point card (K, Q, J, or 10).

8. Blackjack pays 2 to 1. If a dealer draws a Blackjack and a player also draws a Blackjack, the player is paid even money (1:1).

9. If a pair of cards are split, (Aces or 10-value cards) and a Blackjack occurs, it is considered “21” and paid even money, not 2 for 1. If the dealer ties with a 21, then the dealer takes the tie.

10. If dealer’s face-up card is a 10 or Ace, the “down card” will be checked to establish that there is not a dealer Blackjack--before any additional cards or bets are placed by the players.

11. No Insurance bets will be taken.

12. Any 5 cards under 21 is an instant winner, dealer pays 1-to-1

13. Player can “Double Down”, (i.e. double their bet), when their first two cards total 10 or 11. Only one additional card is dealt to the player.

14. Split Cards:
a. Player can “split” any pair once and match the original bet.
b. Player can split only the first two cards.
c. Player will play the first hand and indicate when they are done drawing, before going on to the second hand.
d. When Aces are split, player can only draw one card for each Ace.
e. Player can not “double down” on split pairs.

______
My questions....

1. Should we be allowing players to "surrender"? Since we take ties, many players will never hit above 11 and hope the dealer bust. I'm thinking that with a surrender option would be used often.

2. What do you think the logic is behind allowing a player to double down only on a 10 or 11?

3. Does anybody know of anywhere the house pays when the player is dealt 5 cards that total 21 or less? Perhaps it's a gift to offset the fact that we take ties. I have NEVER seen it in any rule book or Casino.

Any other comments/observations based on the rules above is welcomed as well. Thanks.

Quote: Riva

3. Does anybody know of anywhere the house pays when the player is dealt 5 cards that total 21 or less? Perhaps it's a gift to offset the fact that we take ties. I have NEVER seen it in any rule book or Casino.

By pure coincidence I've just posted on another thread about Pontoon where ties lose and 5-card tricks win. However on that game I think the dealer could also win (beat 21 but not BJ) with 5-card tricks. But it's possible the player always won their 5-card trick first. It was quite a while ago on a ferry.

btw I think the correct strategy is to stick on much lower totals, something like 14 vs 10, so yes people would surrender more.

Also note my comment about the dealer considering hitting 3-card soft 18s - the player should do it (except possibly vs a 7).

Quote: Riva

As mentioned previously, I help run a charitable gaming event for a local school. Wagers typically run from $1-$10. We have 20 tables.
Dealers are volunteers. Below is the rules for the game that are posted at every table. Perhaps the biggest advantage the house has in our game is that we take all ties (except for ties on an a natural, which is paid 1:1). These rules have been in place for decades and frankly, some of them don't make sense to me.

My questions....

1. Should we be allowing players to "surrender"? Since we take ties, many players will never hit above 11 and hope the dealer bust. I'm thinking that with a surrender option would be used often.

2. What do you think the logic is behind allowing a player to double down only on a 10 or 11?

3. Does anybody know of anywhere the house pays when the player is dealt 5 cards that total 21 or less? Perhaps it's a gift to offset the fact that we take ties. I have NEVER seen it in any rule book or Casino.

Any other comments/observations based on the rules above is welcomed as well. Thanks.

1. I don't think you should bother with surrender; it can get complicated about when people are allowed to surrender, half-value bets requiring 50c pieces, slows down the game a bit.

2. It all goes to the house edge; "double down on any 2 cards" is a better bet for the player vs. restriction of only 10/11.

3. That's a 5 card charlie, as charlie mentioned, and it's a very old rule. I saw it on many tables in the 70's -early 80's, just as I got legal to play/deal, and I don't know why it's mostly gone in America, but it is. I understand it and six-card are used extensively in Britain. Probably other places as well.

I thought your house takes ties rule was pretty rough, but with you paying 2:1 on blackjack, that helps get a little of it back.

Ties lose is so massive you can offer every favorable rule you want and still have a disgusting edge.

I'd love to know how much of these "charity" proceeds go to administrative costs, especially executive compensation.

I've run a similar charitable Blackjack game for my school/church, and think that your rules are pretty good.

You need to make the ruleset simple enough for your dealers. If they are well trained, and can handle such "foreign" concepts as surrender, go for it. If it's a group of volunteers with who-knows-what-knowledge, nix it.

If you can, bump up the minimum and maximum. $2 for low, $20 or $25 for high. Higher bets = higher income.

As it was said, since house takes ties, you may want to allow any advantage play you can for the players. Let them double any 2 cards. Let them double after split! I do keep split aces down to one card each, and don't pay 3-2 (or 2-1) for two-card 21's on split hands.

I haven't seen a 5-card Charlie payout in a long time, but I would love to see it if I was playing, just for the whimsy. Your call.

If you have the power to change the rules, change them to your liking. If you have to ask for rule changes, ask for them. When I ran my pit, I only wish I could've asked for better training for the dealers... and I wish I could've prevented them from drinking before or during their shift. Some things were out of my control to a point.

Riva, if you want to PM me any specific questions, I'd be happy to share my experiences with you. Or, keep this thread active and I'll try to post back on any inquiries as well.

Surrender is just another darn thing you have to train the dealers on and confuse the slow players into being even more slow and annoying, so why bother with it.

Double down on 9, 10 or 11 is frequent. Double down on only 10 and 11 is not quite so generous.

Five card Charlie used to be common now its rare to find it. If the dealers are used to it, keep it.

Remember SPEED is what you want from both players and dealers so anything that is simple and fast is good.

You always need to put the poison pill in an apple. If you want ties to lose, well, give the suckers a break, let them see both of the dealer's cards. Found such a game on a really weird website.

https://wizardofodds.com/games/double-exposure/

Quote: RicardoEsteban

Ties lose is so massive you can offer every favorable rule you want and still have a disgusting edge.

I'd love to know how much of these "charity" proceeds go to administrative costs, especially executive compensation.

Ricardo..your anger and cynicism is so palpable, it makes me shiver...Relax babycakes!

I can state that, before God, Man, and RecardoEstaban, etc., that 100% of the profits surrounding our fundraising efforts, funnel to the organization. Does that mean that we do not have costs/overhead? Answer: NO! We have costs. And, these amount to about 5% of revenue. The other 95% pours directly in to the charity. The ONLY persons we compensated from our charity gaming events are the skilled dealers we hire for the big games, craps and roulette. EVERY other person working our event is a "VOLUNTEER" including ME!

Quote: Dween

I've run a similar charitable Blackjack game for my school/church, and think that your rules are pretty good.

You need to make the ruleset simple enough for your dealers. If they are well trained, and can handle such "foreign" concepts as surrender, go for it. If it's a group of volunteers with who-knows-what-knowledge, nix it.

If you can, bump up the minimum and maximum. $2 for low, $20 or $25 for high. Higher bets = higher income.

As it was said, since house takes ties, you may want to allow any advantage play you can for the players. Let them double any 2 cards. Let them double after split! I do keep split aces down to one card each, and don't pay 3-2 (or 2-1) for two-card 21's on split hands.

I haven't seen a 5-card Charlie payout in a long time, but I would love to see it if I was playing, just for the whimsy. Your call.

If you have the power to change the rules, change them to your liking. If you have to ask for rule changes, ask for them. When I ran my pit, I only wish I could've asked for better training for the dealers... and I wish I could've prevented them from drinking before or during their shift. Some things were out of my control to a point.

Riva, if you want to PM me any specific questions, I'd be happy to share my experiences with you. Or, keep this thread active and I'll try to post back on any inquiries as well.

Dween....thanks for the offer....You bring up a very interesting point.

BJ used to be one of our most profitable venues. In recent years, at least during a big, 4-day event, our take has gone down. Craps and roulette are now the big money makers, so much so that I am looking to add another 14' craps to the event.

I am not that active in the BJ area other than to help with strategies so as to make more money. For years the table limits were $1 -$2 w/house taking ties. There was real fear from the powers that be that raising the max, the house could get murdered. It was based purely on gut feel, not statistical data. We finally raised it to $1-$5 and nobody got hurt. What happened though was that most players bet the minimum so it really did not move the needle that much for us.

Last year, we incorporated a more aggressive strategy. Ten of the tables opened the night as $1-$5. Five tables were $2-$5. And, five were $5-$10. The $1-$5 fill up immediately and stayed busy all night. The $2-$5 tables filled up later but most still played the $2. The $5-$10 got sparse action. So, we changed these out to $2-$5 and they eventually filled up. The mindset here was that later in the the night, we would change out the $1-$5 tables to higher stakes. However, when we tried that, some players complained and walked. Not good.

I'm intrigued with your suggestion that we simply set a standard minimum and a moderate maximum and put it on each table, say $2-$20. In that manner, if a player wants to plop down say, a $20 wager, he/she does not have to go to a higher stakes table. Fairly simple to manage as well.

My concern, perhaps unfounded, is variance. If I have, for example, 2 players wagering @ $10-$20 and 5 sticking with the $2 stuff, the house can't recover if the high wagers get hot--even with the house taking ties. The spread is just too big. It seems to me that if I am going to be exposed to $10-$20 wagers, that ALL the wagers on that table have to be in that neighborhood. Unlike a casino, we don't have the luxury of time to recover loses if/when they occur. In short, we are open for business for about 6 hours per-day.

Thoughts?

Quote: Riva

My concern, perhaps unfounded, is variance. If I have, for example, 2 players wagering @ $10-$20 and 5 sticking with the $2 stuff, the house can't recover if the high wagers get hot--even with the house taking ties. The spread is just too big. It seems to me that if I am going to be exposed to $10-$20 wagers, that ALL the wagers on that table have to be in that neighborhood. Unlike a casino, we don't have the luxury of time to recover loses if/when they occur. In short, we are open for business for about 6 hours per-day.

Thoughts?

This neighborhood church runs a "Spring Festival" every June. They offer Blackjack as well. One year, they made quite a mistake.

*) Two decks dealt to the last card, and whoever received it, including dealers, could accept it or redraw after the shuffle.

*) DAS

*) Split any two

*) Resplit

*) Late surrender

The only odd rule was that a blackjack was an ace and a paint. (A,T) was an ordinary 21, and no insurance. The dealers allowed doubling and hitting soft stiffs after splitting aces.

I counted the decks, spread to multiple hands late to make certain I always caught the final card, used end play to keep +1 cards on the table, so every deck began at +5, or better. Since there was a $5.00 maximum, I'd spread to as many as six hands for $5.00 a pop.

By the late afternoon the next day, the BJ manager said I could have no more than $5.00 in action at any one time. Still, it was a very profitable three days. I probably put the Blackjack concession in the red for the three day weekend.

The next year, they'd learned their lesson, and put in that house takes all ties rule. That made this game unprofitable, and after starting with a $20.00 buy, that's what I had after four hours: $20.00 exactly. No better than break-even, or worse.

I wouldn't try to get too fancy, but house takes all ties is devastating. Keep the limits painless, and you'll do just fine and won't have to worry about AP's.

Quote: Impmon

This neighborhood church runs a "Spring Festival" every June. They offer Blackjack as well. One year, they made quite a mistake.

*) Two decks dealt to the last card, and whoever received it, including dealers, could accept it or redraw after the shuffle.

*) DAS

*) Split any two

*) Resplit

*) Late surrender

The only odd rule was that a blackjack was an ace and a paint. (A,T) was an ordinary 21, and no insurance. The dealers allowed doubling and hitting soft stiffs after splitting aces.

I counted the decks, spread to multiple hands late to make certain I always caught the final card, used end play to keep +1 cards on the table, so every deck began at +5, or better. Since there was a $5.00 maximum, I'd spread to as many as six hands for $5.00 a pop.

By the late afternoon the next day, the BJ manager said I could have no more than $5.00 in action at any one time. Still, it was a very profitable three days. I probably put the Blackjack concession in the red for the three day weekend.

The next year, they'd learned their lesson, and put in that house takes all ties rule. That made this game unprofitable, and after starting with a $20.00 buy, that's what I had after four hours: $20.00 exactly. No better than break-even, or worse.

I wouldn't try to get too fancy, but house takes all ties is devastating. Keep the limits painless, and you'll do just fine and won't have to worry about AP's.

Yer a real class act, I must say, hey hey!!!!

Quote: soxfan

Yer a real class act, I must say, hey hey!!!!

Yeah, I know. What can I say? It was just after getting Million Dollar Blackjack, and I was eager to give it a go ferreal.

Quote: Impmon

Yeah, I know. What can I say? It was just after getting Million Dollar Blackjack, and I was eager to give it a go ferreal.

Really? There's nothing about endplay in that (unless I'm not remembering correctly?)

If you figured it out on your own, your first time out... I'm impressed!

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Quote: Impmon

Yeah, I know. What can I say? It was just after getting Million Dollar Blackjack, and I was eager to give it a go ferreal.

Really? There's nothing about endplay in that (unless I'm not remembering correctly?)

If you figured it out on your own, your first time out... I'm impressed!

There wasn't, so you remembered correctly. I read about end play somewhere else, and never figured I'd ever have the occasion to actually use it. Never had that occasion again. Started out with Uston's +/- count and worked on that for about four months before trying it in a live game.

Quote: Riva

I'm intrigued with your suggestion that we simply set a standard minimum and a moderate maximum and put it on each table, say $2-$20. In that manner, if a player wants to plop down say, a $20 wager, he/she does not have to go to a higher stakes table. Fairly simple to manage as well.

My concern, perhaps unfounded, is variance. If I have, for example, 2 players wagering @ $10-$20 and 5 sticking with the $2 stuff, the house can't recover if the high wagers get hot--even with the house taking ties. The spread is just too big. It seems to me that if I am going to be exposed to $10-$20 wagers, that ALL the wagers on that table have to be in that neighborhood. Unlike a casino, we don't have the luxury of time to recover loses if/when they occur. In short, we are open for business for about 6 hours per-day.

Our event was a flat six hours. It actually took an hour or two for anyone to even get going at the tables, and lots of people played the minimum. As the night wore on, the beer was flowing, and people were braver/stupider, and starting max betting. Some even with two spots. We had some folks get lucky and take away a chunk, while some others got stripped. The variance is indeed a killer, and a good night for them can mean a night in the red for you.

Take the reins, and do what you feel is best. Given your concern, I'd drop to a $2-$10 spread. Your thoughts of keeping all bets "in the neighborhood" of each other is smart for such a short term game. Play up the craps and roulette. If those games are making money, promote them more heavily.

For us, our event is only 2 weeks away. If I hadn't mentioned this before, the heads of the event have decided to DROP blackjack from the event, and only have some dice (Beat the Dealer) and poker (Showdown, basically ten-handed stud with a single flat bet. House rakes $2 for a 10-player $1 game, winner gets $8). Pro: Blackjack wasn't a big moneymaker, and was slow due to volunteer dealers. Con: I think people will miss Blackjack... it was a good filler between other events of the night.

Now I'm in charge of the money room; Gathering drops, keeping track of ins-and-outs, etc. I think my skills are better served doing this actually, but I will miss running the Blackjack pit.

Quote: Dween

Our event was a flat six hours. It actually took an hour or two for anyone to even get going at the tables, and lots of people played the minimum. As the night wore on, the beer was flowing, and people were braver/stupider, and starting max betting. Some even with two spots. We had some folks get lucky and take away a chunk, while some others got stripped. The variance is indeed a killer, and a good night for them can mean a night in the red for you.

Take the reins, and do what you feel is best. Given your concern, I'd drop to a $2-$10 spread. Your thoughts of keeping all bets "in the neighborhood" of each other is smart for such a short term game. Play up the craps and roulette. If those games are making money, promote them more heavily.

For us, our event is only 2 weeks away. If I hadn't mentioned this before, the heads of the event have decided to DROP blackjack from the event, and only have some dice (Beat the Dealer) and poker (Showdown, basically ten-handed stud with a single flat bet. House rakes $2 for a 10-player $1 game, winner gets $8). Pro: Blackjack wasn't a big moneymaker, and was slow due to volunteer dealers. Con: I think people will miss Blackjack... it was a good filler between other events of the night.

Now I'm in charge of the money room; Gathering drops, keeping track of ins-and-outs, etc. I think my skills are better served doing this actually, but I will miss running the Blackjack pit.

We would have a revolution on our hands if we did not offer BJ. For some, it is the only place anywhere they can put down a $1 wager, have fun and drink a $3.00 draft. We're only 25 miles from Detroit's 3 big casinos and you can't find a table there for less than $25 after 6:00 PM. However, one factor that has a negative impact on attendance for us is smoking. The casinos are excluded from Michigan's law that bans smoking inside a public building. For many, smoking, drinking and gambling are one in the same. To address this, we allow people to go outside to smoke in a designated area. That has helped bring some regular players back. Poker rooms have also siphoned off part of out traditional crowd however, the State is putting the hammer on the poker rooms right now and I don't think they will survive the new regulations being imposed. That will be good for us.

I shared some of this before but here's what we did to make BJ more profitable. It required some real out-of-the-box thinking.

First..you simply have to live with the fact that most of the BJ dealers are not very skilled--in both dealing technique as well as in math. We require that they arrive 1 hour prior to their shift. Most still show up 30 minutes prior--but it still gives us a chance to go over all the rules and procedures. In the past, if an event started at 7:00, the dealers (volunteers) would typically show up at 7:15 and get tossed right on to a table of hungry players. Confusion reigned.

As for BJ payouts, we pay 2:1 on a BJ. It's not that we hate money. Rather, most would not know how to pay on a 3:2 plus, we don't have .50 chips. It's much easier to simply pay double on a BJ but more importantly, it's FASTER! More hands per-hour.

We use 8-deck shoes and dealers NEVER shuffle. We have about 100 shoes and simply bring in a new fully-shuffled shoe
when the current shoe is spent. 2-3 people are constantly shuffling decks on a nearby table. 2-3 people are running shoes back and forth. This has improved hands-per-hour by 30%-40% as well as our take. There is ZERO down time--and during a 6-hour event, that is HUGE! It took me 3 years to get the powers to be to embrace this idea and to purchase 80 additional shoes. The ROI however, was realized within the first hour of the first event. And, that was about 7 years ago and perhaps 70 events.

Players buy chips at a central table. That way, nobody but a few officers are touching cash. However, we do have 1-2 people on the floor at all times selling chips at tables so players do not have to get up to go buy chips. Typically, they go out with $200 in chips and return with $200 in cash or a combination of cash and chips equaling $200. Plus, they are "barking" all the time. We want players to know that they can buy chips at the table. Make it easy for players and they will sit all night. Make it hard and they might go home.

We sell drinks to players at the tables. We have 3-4 people running running back and forth from the bar to the table. this again, keeps players at the tables. The bigger issue here is that in Michigan, anybody selling and/or dispensing alcohol must be state certified, ""TIPS", so as to not to sell booze to somebody who has over-indulged. Frequently, we have cut people off, particularly at our summertime events.

ATM's....We have a local company that supplies an ATM for all our events. You would not believe how much action that thing gets on a busy night. Plus, the ATM company remotely monitors how much cash is in the machine at any given time and comes out immediately when it gets low to restock with more cash. And, when a machine goes down, they are there within 20 minutes with a new machine. Plus, we get half of the $3 ATM fee. On our 4-day carnival/fair event, there may 6 or so ATM's set up at different locations, in addition to our gambling area. Our organization's ATM rebate check is typically north of 10 grand for that event!

Finally, if you have any kind of a gambling wheel (we now own 3) here are a few things that are a must...trying to be politically correct here...but I have found that women bring in way, way, way more players than men dealers. They don't have to be a stunning beauty either. They simply have to be super friendly and engaging. We encourage the dealers to give away a dollar chip to any person walking by their station with the invite, "first spin free". Works like a charm.

Since as long as I can remember. Players always stood while playing a wheel game (as well as roulette). Why? I don't know other than it has always been done that way. Last year, as an experiment, we rented stools for all these tables. Probably 50 or 60 in total, just enough so if you wanted to sit you could, or stand if you wanted to stand. It's incredible how long people will stay on these games simply by providing a place to sit while playing. Our take on the big 6 wheel tripled compared to previous years!

Finally, with wheels, the best $70 we ever spent: table mirrors! The wheel dealer NEVER turns around to see where the number lands. Rather, their eyes are always on the layout and he/she reads the number through the mirrors. Like any casino, we are not immune from cheating and these 2 little mirrors have virtually eliminated it--at least on the wheels.

Riva,

I've told you before that I'm not a math genius, so take this with a grain of salt. I think that with a combination of unskilled volunteer dealers and the setup you have, you will expose yourself to a team attack if you go 2-20 on the spread, even with the dealer taking ties. I would guess 2-10 would keep the spread low enough to make it not worth their trouble. But with 2-20 and 2 big players jumping in and out of 3 tables when signalled (for example), you could get hit for a thousand or more easily. And no really skilled people to spot the play as it's happening, or regular gaming to see them coming back for more each time.

I am all for taking advantage of opportunity if it presents itself... but it would be very low to try to beat a charity game. I would imagine that most people have a greater sense of moral responsibility than this. Plus how many people who are actually able to count proficiently would waste time at such low stakes and horrible rules.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Riva,

I've told you before that I'm not a math genius, so take this with a grain of salt. I think that with a combination of unskilled volunteer dealers and the setup you have, you will expose yourself to a team attack if you go 2-20 on the spread, even with the dealer taking ties. I would guess 2-10 would keep the spread low enough to make it not worth their trouble. But with 2-20 and 2 big players jumping in and out of 3 tables when signalled (for example), you could get hit for a thousand or more easily. And no really skilled people to spot the play as it's happening, or regular gaming to see them coming back for more each time.

There is no way that, without outright cheating or dealer error, this could happen. "Dealer wins ties" is just too bad of a rule. You need a +18 true count just to offset that one rule.

Personally, I think that it's disgraceful to offer a game with these rules. Hiding behind "charity" is no excuse. This is no better than a carnie scam. The average player is not knowledgeable enough to know just how bad this game is, and you are taking advantage of them. It takes what should be the best game in the house for the player and makes it the worst game. It would be like offering a roulette game with 5 zeros instead of 2, except that no one would play that game because they would know that it's a scam.

Why do people knock over a Dollar store with a gun to take less than $200 from the till? Because it's there, I guess, (happened here night before last) and for some reason 15 years in jail matters less to a certain kind of low person than $200. Riva's game is more vulnerable than that store.

The event I take care of is one night a year, and had at MOST 4 Blackjack tables. It centers around a silent auction and "Horse Races", where they roll dice, and people riding hobby horses vie for win, place and show. Even with so few tables, I was kept busy. I remember a dealer who peeked, had Blackjack, but refused to turn it over, because the upcard wasn't the ace. When I saw it, I told him to turn it, but he argued. So, I said to the table, "He has 21. Anyone want to double down?" Ridiculous.

We do have a 2-night church picnic, which is very busy. I have yet to convince ANYONE that specially printed chips are the way to go. They still use paper money or cash. However, being in this new "cash room" position may give me the clout to make suggestions to improve the bottom line.

I am never in town for the 2-night picnic, although I would love to help out with it. A few years back, I was able to attend for a couple of hours as a player, and sat at a blackjack table (after having to wait a good 20, 30 minutes for a seat... that's good news for the church). It was appalling the way some of the dealers made mistakes, even for rookies. Inconsistent following of rules from table to table... rules posted only at some tables... a guy next to me won on 23. I'll repeat that, a guy next to me won on 23. The dealer didn't take his cards after a very obvious bust, and got paid. There was some other kerfuffle where they couldn't count a soft hand total correctly. Even after emailing the head honchos, they brushed me aside. So, I'm working my way up from the inside, and will do everything I can to change things.

It would be fantastic to get to the point where you seem to be, running a full-fledged, 4-night casino with actual professional equipment. Where do you get your professional dealers, and how much do they get paid?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Riva,

I've told you before that I'm not a math genius, so take this with a grain of salt. I think that with a combination of unskilled volunteer dealers and the setup you have, you will expose yourself to a team attack if you go 2-20 on the spread, even with the dealer taking ties. I would guess 2-10 would keep the spread low enough to make it not worth their trouble. But with 2-20 and 2 big players jumping in and out of 3 tables when signaled (for example), you could get hit for a thousand or more easily. And no really skilled people to spot the play as it's happening, or regular gaming to see them coming back for more each time.

That's good advice. Thanks. It's hard for a dealer/table to get smashed without the floor knowing about it. First off, a table is started with only $100. It never gets above $200 before the tray is shaved down to $100. If a dealer goes broke, and it has happened, we give them another $100 fill. If the same dealer goes broke again (we keep records on all play) then we either shut down the table and/or bring in a new dealer. Sure there are cheaters out there but most of the losses occur by dealers not taking winning bets or paying on a 25 (honest).

Quote: beachbumbabs

Why do people knock over a Dollar store with a gun to take less than $200 from the till? Because it's there, I guess, (happened here night before last) and for some reason 15 years in jail matters less to a certain kind of low person than $200. Riva's game is more vulnerable than that store.

The people who do that generally don't have the capacity to take advantage of a blackjack game that is pretty difficult to beat. Those who do will find something more worth their time.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

There is no way that, without outright cheating or dealer error, this could happen. "Dealer wins ties" is just too bad of a rule. You need a +18 true count just to offset that one rule.

Personally, I think that it's disgraceful to offer a game with these rules. Hiding behind "charity" is no excuse. This is no better than a carnie scam. The average player is not knowledgeable enough to know just how bad this game is, and you are taking advantage of them. It takes what should be the best game in the house for the player and makes it the worst game. It would be like offering a roulette game with 5 zeros instead of 2, except that no one would play that game because they would know that it's a scam.

You are wrong. You are looking at this solely from the perspective of a casino where the house edge hangs around 2%. There is not a charitable organization on the planet that could operate in that space. A casino can operate on 2% because billions of dollars flow through their doors on a 24/7 basis. A charity is open for 6 hours, sometimes for 1 day per year.

People know that charity games have a higher house edge compared to a casino. Still they come. They come because they can still place a $1 wager, drink beer and have lots of fun. Plus, while they want to win, they know that if they lose, the money goes to a good cause. If they didn't, then they could easily go to one of the 3 big casinos that just are 20 minutes away.

And, there are plenty of winners. Believe me, plenty of people walk out with more than they came in with. We have absolutely no problem with that. Really, we don't.

Quote: Riva

You are wrong. You are looking at this solely from the perspective of a casino where the house edge hangs around 2%. There is not a charitable organization on the planet that could operate in that space. A casino can operate on 2% because billions of dollars flow through their doors on a 24/7 basis. A charity is open for 6 hours, sometimes for 1 day per year.

People know that charity games have a higher house edge compared to a casino. Still they come. They come because they can still place a $1 wager, drink beer and have lots of fun. Plus, while they want to win, they know that if they lose, the money goes to a good cause. If they didn't, then they could easily go to one of the 3 big casinos that just are 20 minutes away.

And, there are plenty of winners. Believe me, plenty of people walk out with more than they came in with. We have absolutely no problem with that. Really, we don't.

How many zeros are on your roulette wheel?

A double-zero wheel offers a MUCH better bet than the blackjack game that you are describing, and it's a much, much slower game. And it is hard to find a worse sucker bet than roulette.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

There is no way that, without outright cheating or dealer error, this could happen. "Dealer wins ties" is just too bad of a rule. You need a +18 true count just to offset that one rule.

Actually, I take that back. With a count that high you are getting absolutely crushed by the increased number of ties (which you lose).

I wonder if there is any deck composition which gives you an edge here. The problem is that an increase in the number of cards that help the player (10s) also greatly increase the number of ties (20 v 20 is the most common tie, by far, for obvious reasons).

Quote: Dween

The event I take care of is one night a year, and had at MOST 4 Blackjack tables. It centers around a silent auction and "Horse Races", where they roll dice, and people riding hobby horses vie for win, place and show. Even with so few tables, I was kept busy. I remember a dealer who peeked, had Blackjack, but refused to turn it over, because the upcard wasn't the ace. When I saw it, I told him to turn it, but he argued. So, I said to the table, "He has 21. Anyone want to double down?" Ridiculous.

We do have a 2-night church picnic, which is very busy. I have yet to convince ANYONE that specially printed chips are the way to go. They still use paper money or cash. However, being in this new "cash room" position may give me the clout to make suggestions to improve the bottom line.

I am never in town for the 2-night picnic, although I would love to help out with it. A few years back, I was able to attend for a couple of hours as a player, and sat at a blackjack table (after having to wait a good 20, 30 minutes for a seat... that's good news for the church). It was appalling the way some of the dealers made mistakes, even for rookies. Inconsistent following of rules from table to table... rules posted only at some tables... a guy next to me won on 23. I'll repeat that, a guy next to me won on 23. The dealer didn't take his cards after a very obvious bust, and got paid. There was some other kerfuffle where they couldn't count a soft hand total correctly. Even after emailing the head honchos, they brushed me aside. So, I'm working my way up from the inside, and will do everything I can to change things.

It would be fantastic to get to the point where you seem to be, running a full-fledged, 4-night casino with actual professional equipment. Where do you get your professional dealers, and how much do they get paid?

BJ is where most of the mistakes are made. That's because the dealers are poorly trained and it's also where we have the most tables (20). It's frustrating however, I can live with some incompetence and mistakes in exchange for more hands-per-hour.

Yes, we have a full-fledged, 4-night casino which is part of a huge fair/carnival event. It's conducted inside of a huge tent.
We, like everybody else, used to rent all of our equipment. It ate up 50% of the revenue. Plus, the stuff was old and dirty. I took years to convince the powers that be that it is smarter to own our equipment versus rent. There was incredible push-back, basically it was of the "we'll never make our money back" stuff.

Case in point....we always would rent a big six wheel. Cost $300 per-day/ $1,200 for our 4-day weekend event. Last year, we purchased a 60" brand new, shiny, casino-quality big 6 wheel, loaded with real money. Cost: $2,500 delivered. Then built a 10' table for it with 2 custom layouts, right and left. Cost: $800. Total investment: $3,300. Weekend profits on the big 6 game: $4,000. So, we recovered 100% of the cost on the buy/build, made a few shekels on top and, will never have to rent again. All the stuff (50 tables) is casino quality. BTW a person just donated 2, brand new, casino-grade, 32'' roulette wheels to us. They are absolutely beautiful.

As pro dealers go, we get them from the casino equipment rental companies. Cost about $75 for 8 hours. Plus, we feed them and they can have a beer or two on the house after their shift is over. We typically only rent pro dealers for craps and roulette.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

How many zeros are on your roulette wheel?

A double-zero wheel offers a MUCH better bet than the blackjack game that you are describing, and it's a much, much slower game. And it is hard to find a worse sucker bet than roulette.

Then, I guess you shouldn't play BJ at our events! Ha!

But, in answer to your question..our roulette wheels are double-zero. And, our tables are 20' long with 2 layouts on either side with the wheel in the middle. Why so big? Because it allows us to handle 40 or so players with only six people dealing.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Actually, I take that back. With a count that high you are getting absolutely crushed by the increased number of ties (which you lose).

I wonder if there is any deck composition which gives you an edge here. The problem is that an increase in the number of cards that help the player (10s) also greatly increase the number of ties (20 v 20 is the most common tie, by far, for obvious reasons).

Actually, I asked that very question on this website a few month ago, specifically; how much does taking ties increase the house edge? And, somebody posted the answer that appears in the wizard's files. Answer; it moves the house edge up to about 7.5%

That, in my book, is not horrible. What taking ties does, more than anything else, is motivates the player to take unwise hits on 12 or greater and with the dealer showing 7 or greater. Rather than lose on a tie, they will hit on 12-16 when they should stand. From my observation, the smart play when dealer takes ties is to NEVER take a hit on 12 or greater and simply hope the dealer busts.

Found it:

The Wizard has a page with rule variations:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/
The chart is ranked by the % effect of each rule. "Player looses 17-21 ties" is ranked at the bottom at -8.8%!

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Our poker room blackjack tables only took ties on 17-19. Still a steep HE to overcome but not as bad as taking all ties.

Yes, I know that taking all ties is aggressive. Again, many of players simply never improve on a 12 or greater when the dealer is showing 7 or greater. They will simply sit on 12-16 and hope the dealer busts. And, when this happens, the entire table goes absolutely bonkers!

Quote: Riva

Actually, I asked that very question on this website a few month ago, specifically; how much does taking ties increase the house edge? And, somebody posted the answer that appears in the wizard's files. Answer; it moves the house edge up to about 7.5%

I don't know who told you that, but it's false. It actually increases the house edge by almost 9%. That's on top of whatever house edge the game had before you added that rule.

Quote:

That, in my book, is not horrible.

You don't think that a game with a 10% edge is horrible? It's twice as bad and twice as fast as roulette, which means that the players will lose their money 4x as fast. And that's 4x as fast as roulette, the ultimate sucker game. It is literally 20x as bad as a good blackjack game.

Quote:

What taking ties does, more than anything else, is motivates the player to take unwise hits on 12 or greater and with the dealer showing 7 or greater. Rather than lose on a tie, they will hit on 12-16 when they should stand. From my observation, the smart play when dealer takes ties is to NEVER take a hit on 12 or greater and simply hope the dealer busts.

I haven't run any numbers. Clearly there are strategy changes to be made, but I doubt that they are this extreme. I seriously doubt that standing on a 12 vs a 10 is correct, especially after the dealer has checked for blackjack.

Quote:

Found it:

The Wizard has a page with rule variations:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/rule-variations/
The chart is ranked by the % effect of each rule. "Player looses 17-21 ties" is ranked at the bottom at -8.8%!

Yes, exactly.

Quote: Riva

Yes, I know that taking all ties is aggressive. Again, many of players simply never improve on a 12 or greater when the dealer is showing 7 or greater. They will simply sit on 12-16 and hope the dealer busts. And, when this happens, the entire table goes absolutely bonkers!

So, your bad rule causes them to play even worse and give up an even bigger edge.

You should really be ashamed of yourself for running a scam like this. The fact that the money goes to charity is irrelevant. You are taking money from people who don't understand that they don't have a chance.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

So, your bad rule causes them to play even worse and give up an even bigger edge.

You should really be ashamed of yourself for running a scam like this. The fact that the money goes to charity is irrelevant. You are taking money from people who don't understand that they don't have a chance.

I don't want to get in to a pizzing match with you. Rather, I come here for information and many are happy to share and, to which I am grateful.

I have been around charity gaming for 40+ years and I have NEVER seen a game where casino-type odds are paid. Taking ties in BJ is has always been the rule. Players know that going in the door. They have for decades. Again, no non-profit or charitable organization would EVER conduct an event where there is not a considerable house edge. They would be nuts if they did.

Do you not buy Girl Scout cookies when you know they make a 400% margin and that you could purchase the same item for considerably less at the store? No, you buy the cookies because you know the money is going to a worthy cause. Same with charitable gaming. In fact, many go home with more money than they came in with. You can't say that about girl scout cookies.

At the end of the day, charitable gaming is "at risk entertainment'' wheres at a casino, it's an "at risk business". My suggestion is you simply focus on the latter and stop your name calling. Sheesh!

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Some of the charity poker rooms do in fact offer standard casino blackjack rules.

Yes, you are correct. However, do think that the same charity would offer standard casino blackjack rules if you took poker out of the equation?

Also, what do they do in the poker room when the players get lucky? It could crush the charity's entire take for the night.

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Quote: Riva

I don't want to get in to a pizzing match with you. Rather, I come here for information and many are happy to share and, to which I am grateful.

Well, I correct some of the inaccurate information that you had.

Quote:

I have been around charity gaming for 40+ years and I have NEVER seen a game where casino-type odds are paid. Taking ties in BJ is has always been the rule. Players know that going in the door. They have for decades. Again, no non-profit or charitable organization would EVER conduct an event where there is not a considerable house edge. They would be nuts if they did.

I am not talking about offering a game with no edge. I just don't understand why blackjack needs to be so much worse than all the other games that you offer.

Quote:

Do you not buy Girl Scout cookies when you know they make a 400% margin and that you could purchase the same item for considerably less at the store? No, you buy the cookies because you know the money is going to a worthy cause. Same with charitable gaming. In fact, many go home with more money than they came in with. You can't say that about girl scout cookies.

It's never once occurred to me to buy girl scout cookies. In the rare case where I've been asked if I wanted to buy them, I've just said "no thanks".

The problem is not the margin. The problem is whether people know what they are getting. With dealer-takes-ties blackjack, they don't. They see craps, with the same odds as the casino. They see roulette, with the same odds as the casino. And they see blackjack, with one extra rule which they know hurts them but doesn't sound like it hurts them that badly, but actually raises the house edge by a factor of 15 or 20 and gives them no chance of leaving with more money than they came with if they play for any significant amount of time.

It's not the edge, it's the dishonesty.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

No and it happened to us. I'm not saying you should have standard rules either.

You should come out to one of our events sometime. I"ll buy ya a beer!

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Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Well, I correct some of the inaccurate information that you had.



I am not talking about offering a game with no edge. I just don't understand why blackjack needs to be so much worse than all the other games that you offer.



It's never once occurred to me to buy girl scout cookies. In the rare case where I've been asked if I wanted to buy them, I've just said "no thanks".

The problem is not the margin. The problem is whether people know what they are getting. With dealer-takes-ties blackjack, they don't. They see craps, with the same odds as the casino. They see roulette, with the same odds as the casino. And they see blackjack, with one extra rule which they know hurts them but doesn't sound like it hurts them that badly, but actually raises the house edge by a factor of 15 or 20 and gives them no chance of leaving with more money than they came with if they play for any significant amount of time.

It's not the edge, it's the dishonesty.

I am sorry, but you are totally wrong. It is hardly dishonest. EVERY game at our events has the odds and/or payouts/rules conspicuously posted on or near the game/table for all to see. If the player does not understand they numeric dynamic of the house taking ties in BJ, then how does that make the house dishonest? Gimme a frick'n break.

Does the casino tell people that betting on boxcars on the craps table is perhaps the worst bet in the house? Answer: No! It's incumbent on the player to know that it's a dumb bet. Again, we put ALL the numbers and rules under the player's nose. Players still play. And, we've been putting on these events for 40 years and the players--the same players-- keep coming back. To be honest, I don't know what your problem is. In any case, I don't care.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

If I'm on that side if the state, I'll drop you a line.

\

I thought that you were in Detroit area?

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I am. And I thought you were on the west side of the state.

Nope, Detroit Metro

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Ok. Can you give the location?

will send you a PM.

you've probably already know of our event. It's huge.

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Most craps and roulette payouts are shaved as well. The odds aren't the same.

Really?

If there are two zeros on the wheel, then it seems like at least red/black/odd/even have to have the same odds. I don't think that people would be willing to accept short pays for those (although maybe I'm wrong).

Same with the pass line in craps. I know that even some casinos short-change the field and prop bets but those are sucker bets anyway. It's hard to mess with pass/don't pass.

Quote: Riva

If the player does not understand they numeric dynamic of the house taking ties in BJ,

You don't even understand it. How do you expect the players to?