$5k Min BJ at Caesars

I noticed in the Wizards BJ survey a table at Caesars listed as having s $5k min bet ($50kmax). Has anyone observed the play on this table? Does it get many players or does it sit largely empty?

I remember when that was announced in December 2007 . It was considered a move to attract publicity, since the other major corporations make individual decisions to extend limits over $10K.

Terrance Watanabe played at these tables (three hands at once) as part of his plunge at losing over $100 million in Harrah's hotels.

Low rollers cannot walk by these tables.

So Wantanabe lost around $127M in 2007. Assuming he played BJ and other low HA games, wonder how much he actually wagered over those 12 months. One would think it would have to have been well over $1B.

Well, a player drunk out of his mind can make BJ a high HA game.

BTW This guy I work with once tried BJ at a semi-legit casino off the coast of Chetumal (south of Cancun, near the border with Belize), but he knew nothing about BJ. He wound up asking the dealer for advice at every point in the game. He promptly lost his $20 stake. At least he had the sense to wager small.

You may be right. According to the WSJ article he played high HA games likes Slots and Roulette heavily, and when he did play BJ he played so poorly that he made it a high HA game.

Sorry to steer this thread off course, but does anyone know what is happening with the Watanabe Case?

The last I had read was he was supposed to go to trial this summer. That was back in December. There was a long article in the WSJ.

Not sure, but I think the judge was in the process of authorizing discovery. I don't think there has been a date for trial set. It would be great if they got access to Harrahs' records and the stuff they do to keep and attract whales. Some of it won't be pretty. This will drag on for a long time.

When a casino as large as Harrahs/Caesars for example, begins to act in a predatory way towards gamblers, the gaming commission can no longer seriously threaten to suspend or revoke their gaming licence. Gaming then has to protect the casino's interests or too many people lose their jobs. Consequently we see patrons like the blackjack players having their civil rights violated.

Players like Terrance Watanabe also fall prey to management. In the past, the casino would not have tried to collect the remaining ten percent or less that he owes by trying to throw the guy in jail, and it certainly wouldn't have allowed the story to make it into the news. Gaming would also have acted to suspend their gaming license over the documented stories of drug and alcohol abuse. Even Steve Wynn saw a problem with the guy and banned him before he could self destruct, but not Harrahs. Caesars Palace welcomed him with open arms.

When a casino's bonds become junk bonds, then the entire gaming enviroment in such a casino becomes a program to fleece players out of more money. Not intentionally at first, but as the direct result of upper management putting pressure on individual casinos and their managers to meet unrealistic goals. When this begins to happen, players should just stay away.

Over the next couple of years, I'm sure casinos owned by Harrahs will see a large part of their "Seven Star Players" jump ship to the Wynn and elsewhere because of the casino's junk bond status. Afterall, if we don't want to buy their bonds, then why on earth should we to trust them with our money while we gamble with markers in their casinos. (I don't think the free cruises are going to help much.) Besides, we all get skiddish when we hear of the patron abuse stories in the casino in the LV Sun, from other players, and now from the dealers that work there - since they've become unionized.

Just my ten cents,

Keyser.

Quote: teddys

Not sure, but I think the judge was in the process of authorizing discovery. I don't think there has been a date for trial set. It would be great if they got access to Harrahs' records and the stuff they do to keep and attract whales. Some of it won't be pretty. This will drag on for a long time.

What do you guys think his chances are? I mean, yes it's his money and he can do whatever he wants with it regardless of how stupid it is... but by the law Harrah's might be at fault. As mentioned by someone else, I didn't know that Wynn had kicked him out which shows a history of bad behavior on his part. Regardless, if this 'goes to trial' and it isn't closed, I'm excited to learn about how they attract the whales.

Since the dealers have become unionized, they seem to be free to spill the guts on some of the stuff that's been happening.

In the Terrance case, according to the transcripts, there are people on record saying that they've witnessed him drunk while playing, among other things. The union is effecting how this case is playing out, since casinos can't put pressure on the dealers directly without a union rep. being present. One of the things a casino can not due is allow a player to gamble like Terrance Watanabe was, while they're drunk. It's a very serious violation. (Let's watch to see if gaming enforces this one.)

I wonder, if Terrance would have won a fraction of what he had loss, if he would have been paid? I suspect they would accuse him of cheating to avoid paying. (Bad faith perahps?)

I'm guessing we'll see all sorts of stuff in the next few weeks. In the short term, just set down at a table with just the dealer and ask them what the newest scandal is.

We should start a thread called: "Stories and Scandal From The Dealers at Caesar's Palace" :)

-Keyser

He won't win. What jury is going to find for a drunk, stupid idiot who gambled away his family's fortune? He would have to have 2x OJ-caliber representation. However, I think he at least has a case for trial if he can prove that Harrahs' behavior was wanton or recklessly negligent, or they encouraged him to gamble while drunk. To know that, we need to know some more facts which is why I hope discovery happens.

Anybody who is more familiar with Nevada state law feel free to chime in here.

Here are the court documents in the Terrance Watanbe case. Caesars was hell bent on fleecing this guy in my opinion.

http://www.radaronline.com/sites/default/files/lettertogamingsm.pdf

If we can get back to my original question, do these tables see many players or do they sit largely empty? If you were yo walk past on any given might would you be likely to see someone playing at a $5k minimum?

They have occasional players, but people that are playing at that level know that Caesars isn't exactly a safe bet right now.
It's one thing to play that big and lose, and another thing to play that large and actually get paid by them if you win.
Too many rumors.

Talk to the hosts at the other properties.

The Wynn/Encore appears to be the best bet.

Quote: Aussie

If we can get back to my original question, do these tables see many players or do they sit largely empty? If you were yo walk past on any given might would you be likely to see someone playing at a $5k minimum?

There is a semi-private casino room called the Palace Court Tables that you can't just walk into. It's on the property map.

Quote: Keyser

They have occasional players, but people that are playing at that level know that Caesars isn't exactly a safe bet right now.
It's one thing to play that big and lose, and another thing to play that large and actually get paid by them if you win.
Too many rumors.

Talk to the hosts at the other properties.

The Wynn/Encore appears to be the best bet.

What other rumors?

It appears Terrance Watanbe's case has caught the attention of the Gaming Control Board. His chances of winning just improved. The story from today is below.
------------------------



Apr. 29, 2010
Copyright © Las Vegas Review-Journal

Gaming agents step up probe of indicted high-roller's claims

By JEFF GERMAN
LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL
Terrance Watanabe

State gaming agents are stepping up an investigation into an indicted high-roller's claims that Harrah's Entertainment casinos unlawfully encouraged him to gamble away tens of millions of dollars by keeping him in a constant state of intoxication.

Within the past two weeks, agents with the Nevada Gaming Control Board began intensive interviews with witnesses who Terrance Watanabe's lawyers say can corroborate allegations Caesars Palace and the Rio supplied him with a steady flow of alcohol and prescription painkillers as his gambling losses piled up in 2007.






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As many as 20 current and former Harrah's employees are expected to be questioned, sources said.

The heightened probe comes as Watanabe's lawyers are pressing the district attorney's office to drop criminal fraud charges against the 53-year-old Nebraska philanthropist. Watanabe is charged with not paying $14.7 million in gambling markers at Caesars Palace and the Rio.

Watanabe's lead Los Angeles attorney, Pierce O'Donnell, pitched his case for dismissal last month in a meeting with Assistant District Attorney Chris Owens and Chief Deputy District Attorney Bernie Zadrowski, who runs the bad check unit prosecuting Watanabe.

Zadrowski would not discuss the meeting, but said Watanabe's lawyers brought a box of documents relating to Watanabe's extensive play and marker payments at the Harrah's casinos. The lawyers estimate the 53-year-old Watanabe lost $112 million at the casinos in 2007.

District Attorney David Roger said he was unsure what impact the gaming investigation would have on the criminal prosecution. "We have been in contact with gaming agents who have told us they will share any information they uncover in their investigation. "

Gaming Control Board Chairman Dennis Neilander would not discuss the latest developments in the Harrah's investigation. He has said the board would not take any regulatory action until the criminal case is over.

"We're moving ahead," Neilander said his week. "We're conducting the investigation in a way that isn't interfering with the criminal matter being handled by the district attorney."

Harrah's spokesman Gary Thompson wouldn't discuss the latest developments in the investigation.

"We have been and will continue to cooperate fully with the Gaming Control Board as it looks into what we consider nothing more than an attempt by Mr. Watanabe to divert attention from his criminal activities," Thompson said.

The district attorney's office filed charges against Watanabe last year at the request of Harrah's, the world's largest casino company.

O'Donnell would not comment on his effort to persuade the district attorney's office to drop the criminal case, but he said he was pleased that gaming regulators were picking up the pace of the Harrah's investigation.

"We are gratified that the Nevada Gaming Control Board appears to be exercising its statutory authority and duty to investigate the serious allegations raised by Terry Watanabe against Caesars Palace and the Rio," he said.

O'Donnell brought the allegations to light in a 24-page complaint filed with the Control Board on Nov. 18. O'Donnell accused Harrah's Entertainment of "continuously" serving "massive amounts of alcohol" to Watanabe as he gambled when the company knew he was intoxicated.

O'Donnell also alleged Harrah's "repeatedly gave him prescription painkillers (without a doctor's prescription or diagnosis) that combined with alcohol rendered him utterly intoxicated and unfit to gamble."

Nevada gaming regulations prohibit casinos from allowing "visibly intoxicated" gamblers from continuing to gamble.

O'Donnell also charged in his complaint that Harrah's Entertainment encouraged Watanabe to gamble "often without sleep" when it knew he was a chronic problem gambler.

O'Donnell has supplied regulators with nearly a dozen names of witnesses he believes can corroborate Watanabe's allegations that the company preyed on his gambling addiction.

Contact Jeff German at jgerman@reviewjournal.com or 702-380-8135.

I have to be completely honest: If I ever get that rich, blowing $100 mil in Vegas would be one of my top 5 things to do. I mean if it was my entire fortune, that would be retarded... but if I was worth billions. I mean my parents would probably disown me, but that was probably a magical Vegas trip he had.

Magical trip? The guy was plied with Jewel of Russia vodka and Lortab painkillers and was basically kept a voluntary prisoner at Caesars for seven months. He was stumbling around in a drugged stupor most of the time, if the complaint is to be believed. I don't think I would call that "magical."

Link to the complaint

Caesars didn't pick the guy up as a player until Steve Wynn personally met with the guy and banned him.
Steve realized that he was out of control.

What does that tell you about Caesar's Palace?

I'm sure there's more on the horizon for Caesar's Palace. The rumors are flying over there. Between the dealer's talking and the hosts from the other casinos, they are in for a rough ride this year.

Before the union moved in, none of the dealers had the nerve to discuss anything. But not anymore.

Harrah's Vegas casino revenue almost hit $2 billion in 2007. It seems as if Watanabe accounted for several percentage points from that year.

2009 : $1,476
2008 : $1,719
2007 : $1,987
2006 : $1,727
2005 : $1,055
2004 : $572


The purchase of Ceasars was on June 2005 and Imperial Palace was later that year.

In Prior year's they included all of Nevada into one group (Reno + Laughlin + Vegas)
2005 : $1,544
2004 : $1,041
2003 : $905

Quote: ahiromu

I have to be completely honest: If I ever get that rich, blowing $100 mil in Vegas would be one of my top 5 things to do.

I'm there with you Ahiromu! But I'd better be worth $500 million or else my wife would kill me.

Yeah, plus you'd probably also have to donate another $100mil to charities or else you'd be attacked as a heartless and selfish asshole.

Quote: pacomartin

There is a semi-private casino room called the Palace Court Tables that you can't just walk into. It's on the property map.

My wife and I stayed at Caesars in July 2007 and we saw two young gentlemen in the Palace Court Tables playing blackjack. They had a large board set up for each of them with a stack of black chips in each as long as your arm. We walked by about 40 minutes later and both gentlemen were down to a quarter of what they started with.

That's the only time I've ever seen anyone play in that section of Caesars although my wife and I only go about once a year.

Quote: pacomartin

There is a semi-private casino room called the Palace Court Tables that you can't just walk into. It's on the property map.

Why can't you just walk into it? I thought they legally have to make all gaming areas open to the public? Or would they simply make you feel so unwelcome that only the most shameless person would wander in?

Quote: Aussie

Quote: pacomartin

There is a semi-private casino room called the Palace Court Tables that you can't just walk into. It's on the property map.

Why can't you just walk into it? I thought they legally have to make all gaming areas open to the public? Or would they simply make you feel so unwelcome that only the most shameless person would wander in?

You could just walk in, but there are no dealers in there. I think you'd have to arrange with the casino to play in there before hand.

Quote: Aussie

Why can't you just walk into it? I thought they legally have to make all gaming areas open to the public? Or would they simply make you feel so unwelcome that only the most shameless person would wander in?

They changed the law to allow private gaming a few years ago to be more competitive with Asia. The Gaming Commission must have fiber linked view of the areas 24 hours a day.

Public Gaming was a mainstay for over 70 years.