Chartible Gaming Question

Hello.

I've come on to this forum before with some questions regarding the various games we have surrounding our school's charitable gaming activities. It is real-money gambling and we do this type of fundraising throughout the year. This 4-day weekend is our biggest event of the year as we will have a huge "Vegas Tent" put up outdoors with about 50 gaming tables inside. It's a lot of fun but it's also a lot of work. Still, it makes a lot of money for a very good school.

My question today is about blackjack. For years, the people that ran this event would only allow $1 minimums and $5 maximums on the blackjack tables. Their logic was/is that by limiting wagers, they were protecting the house from big losses should things go south. As a result, losses, if they occurred we never very great. Alternately, winnings, if we we were very lucky, were/are nominal at best. Perhaps $100-$300 per table per-night (we have 20 blackjack tables). Nothing to sneeze at but not a ton of money in my opinion.

I have told these people that we can make a ton more money during the 8-hours per-day that we are open if we simply raise the table limits. I should note that in charitable games such as this THE HOUSE ALL TIES! Still, players tolerate this policy because this is more of a carnival event than a real casino and they know that the money goes to a good cause. Plus, players bust out more often because they know a dealer will take all ties.

I finally got the old timers to agree to raise the table limits in 10 of the 20 tables for this weekend's event. The minimum is $5 and maximum is $10. The tables are grouped in the tent in two large circles of 10 tables each. This may seem like a silly question but here we go...I want to set up the tables where every other table is a $5/$10 table located right next to a $1/$5 table. The others want to keep all the high wager tables in one table group in order to "keep an eye on things". My contention is that players will always migrate to the lower wager tables and will avoid the higher wager tables unless they can not find a chair at one of the lower wager tables, thus forcing them to them play at the $5 / $10 tables.

This may seem silly however, my job is to help the house make as much money as it can and, the devil is in the details! Any input appreciated.

Riva,

Interesting question, asking more for expertise on human behavioral patterns than gambling knowledge. I am an expert in neither. However, if I were setting up your event, I would mix the tables 7/3 (or roughly every third table). That way, you get a busy low-dollar pit with maybe some higher-stakes players and, when those tables start to fill up, the other pit gets broken open earlier, but you still concentrate most of your higher dollars with all tables in play.

i suppose, unless you're using professionally trained dealers (I suspect you are, since there are a lot of those companies around, but you could be using "celebrity" dealers or volunteers instead), and the added house edge of not pushing, you're probably not going to get taken by sharpies, but anything's possible. Regardless, "constant vigilance!" seems like a good idea with real money on the table.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Riva,

Interesting question, asking more for expertise on human behavioral patterns than gambling knowledge. I am an expert in neither. However, if I were setting up your event, I would mix the tables 7/3 (or roughly every third table). That way, you get a busy low-dollar pit with maybe some higher-stakes players and, when those tables start to fill up, the other pit gets broken open earlier, but you still concentrate most of your higher dollars with all tables in play.

i suppose, unless you're using professionally trained dealers (I suspect you are, since there are a lot of those companies around, but you could be using "celebrity" dealers or volunteers instead), and the added house edge of not pushing, you're probably not going to get taken by sharpies, but anything's possible. Regardless, "constant vigilance!" seems like a good idea with real money on the table.

About 70% of our dealers are volunteers (parents) and they deal mostly blackjack because it is simple. We hire local professional dealers that deal mostly craps and roulette (we own 50 gaming tables).

Blackjack is troublesome for the house because many of our BJ dealers are not very savvy and don't drag winnings when they should and/or pay out when they shouldn't. To your point, "constant vigilance" is definitely the way to go. Still it happens. Taking ties makes up for it.

I like your suggestion of 7/3 in each group of 10 tables to begin with. Probably around 10:00 PM, I'll flip it around and have only 3, low wager tables in each pit of 10 and 7 high wager tables. We have wager cards that are easy to change out.

As someone who works charity gaming events (not real money) I say group them by limits. Put your strongest dealers in the higher limit area and watch it closer. BJ at this level isn't hard to deal but it is amazing what some dealers do. Plus if a dealer is not following all the rules you get the "that dealer let me do it factor" out there. By grouping you ensure a standard practice. People will find the limit they like.

How many, "Watchmen"? If you need to spread them out, it may be better to mix the limits since the "volunteers" will probably need more help initially. Like a real casino, you can always move the limits up, grandfathering the sitting players in.

Are there local/state laws limiting how high the stakes can be set for charity games?


Good luck!

Whether its tables or slots, casinos group them by betting ranges for a reason: to make it easier for players to find a game in their comfort betting zone.

Therefore, do NOT alternate but group them. Of course, as you raise or lower to adjust, it may get mixed up, but then you'll have a better idea for the next day.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Whether its tables or slots, casinos group them by betting ranges for a reason: to make it easier for players to find a game in their comfort betting zone.

Therefore, do NOT alternate but group them. Of course, as you raise or lower to adjust, it may get mixed up, but then you'll have a better idea for the next day.

The strategy DJTB suggests is sound when the dealer's are competent. If you have the rookie dealer's all concentrated in a pit of low limit tables, whoever has to supervise will be too busy answering questions to watch the game as carefully as they should. If you add more supervisors to the low limit tables to compensate, you run the risk of a high limit game getting taken by a crooked dealer due to lack of supervision. To me, mixing them seems the best way to spread the risk.

Quote: Ayecarumba

How many, "Watchmen"? If you need to spread them out, it may be better to mix the limits since the "volunteers" will probably need more help initially. Like a real casino, you can always move the limits up, grandfathering the sitting players in.

Are there local/state laws limiting how high the stakes can be set for charity games?


Good luck!

We are in Michigan and the state runs charitable gaming activities. One rule stipulates that 50% of all workers must be volunteer. The house can set virtually any rule(s) it wants regarding the games like taking ties in BJ and shaving payouts on craps and roulette. There is no limit as to how much the house can make however, there is a limit as to how much money (cash to chips) can be in play on the floor at any time. Also, there is no limit as to how much a player can lose, there is a $500 limit as to what they can win. Players get around this easily by simply giving any amount over $500 to a pal to cash in or cashing out several times over the course of the night. With all the rules and payouts tilted so much in favor of the house, it's hard to make $500+, although it's been done many times. We had a fellow on our roulette table a few years back that made about $5,000 in 30 minutes. He went nuclear when he was told he could only cash in $500. He pitched a fit and the cops were called. Turns out he was a pro that worked small games like ours and had an outstanding warrant. Wrecked his weekend.

The old timers are right... but for the wrong reason.

You should keep the two areas separate. Always let the crowd know what ahead. Group all your Low Limit Tables in one place then group all your "High" limit tables in another. No confusion is crowd flow, no distracting questions from passersby. A nice LARGE sign high up... Low Limit Min 1, Max 5 to the Left. High Limit Min 5, Max 10 to the Right.

Let them make up their own minds and choose themselves: No muss, no fuss.

Have everyone know the rules cold and know what questions come up and know the proper payouts and procedures.

With the rules you have about ties... those tables are bringing in a suspiciously low amount. Heck, real casinos support PAID dealers, PAID half-naked ladies and several dozen FREE bottles of booze, so a charity event ought to be raking it in.

Good luck to you.

Do you get $5.00 bets on the $1/$5 Table? If so, why not just make the Limits $1-$10, you can't possibly be that afraid of the four-step Marty!

Have a great time!

Quote: FleaStiff

The old timers are right... but for the wrong reason.

You should keep the two areas separate. Always let the crowd know what ahead. Group all your Low Limit Tables in one place then group all your "High" limit tables in another. No confusion is crowd flow, no distracting questions from passersby. A nice LARGE sign high up... Low Limit Min 1, Max 5 to the Left. High Limit Min 5, Max 10 to the Right.

Let them make up their own minds and choose themselves: No muss, no fuss.

Have everyone know the rules cold and know what questions come up and know the proper payouts and procedures.

With the rules you have about ties... those tables are bringing in a suspiciously low amount. Heck, real casinos support PAID dealers, PAID half-naked ladies and several dozen FREE bottles of booze, so a charity event ought to be raking it in.

Good luck to you.

Report from night #1 of 4.

Last night (Friday) was our first night in our annual "Vegas Tent". Regrettably, the temps were in the low 50"s so many people did not come out as they normally would. Typically, on a Friday or Saturday night it is SRO with people begging to get on "any" table. Unlike other years, last night, every dealer and every table was in place, with chips full, and ready to deal when the doors opened at 7:00 PM. Our 14' craps table filled up immediately and there were about 16 players on it until we closed. Our two 20' roulette tables were fairly busy all night however, the net was small as many players got real lucky and walked with their winnings.

But to the subject at hand, Blackjack, continues to frustrate me. And I think I know the problem.

First, I was supervising roulette and Big 6 so, I could not spend much time at our 20 blackjack tables. Most tables were about 3/4 full and the crowd was happy and loud with lots of beer flowing. Plus, we had a heater pipe pumping in warm air and, it was located near the BJ tables. Each table has a table tent with 4 minimum/maximum wagers printed on them. All the dealer has to do is change out one card for the other in order to change the wager limits. The cards are $1/$5 (for the matinee hours only), $2/$10, $5/$10, $10/20.

At the start, I had 13 tables at $2/10 and 6 tables at $5/10. The 2/10 tables filled up fast. I then went over to work my area thinking all things were good and that the higher wager tables would soon fill up. Not so.

About 2 hours in, I was called over to to BJ to settle a minor player dispute. I then noticed the wager tent on the table displaying $1/$5. Doing a quick check, about half the tables were showing $1/$5, with the rest showing $2/10. ALL the $5/$10 tables had been changed out to lower wagers. Not sure how it happened but either the players wanted more action and changed out the cards themselves or, the pit boss ordered it. Either way, the entire strategy to raise minimums and maximums was shot to hell and I had 140 players betting $1 or $2 bets all night! It's hard to suddenly bump a table from $1/$5 to $5/10 at 11:00 PM as may of the players will ply go to another game (which is full) and/or simply go home. At the end of the night, the average take for each table was about $75. This, in my opinion, was a total waste of effort. Each of those tables should have averaged out $300-$700.

Irrespective of how I group/position the low wager tables and the high wager tables, I think I have an even bigger problem:

1. It appears there is no control in that area from either the pit supervisor and/or players from arbitrarily changing out wager limits at will.

2. I'll plead the 5th here but, it's my fault for putting all 4 wager limit cards inside the table tents.

Solution...

I'm not going to make any friends here but we must enforce a rule that it is forbidden for either the supervisor or player to change their wager card without my or the other chair's permission. PERIOD.

To reinforce that, I am going to physically remove all wager cards from the table tents other than the wager card we want to have in action on a particular table. In that manner, if we want to change out any card, the supervisor will have to physically remove one card and replace it with the new, taking the old card with him/her, leaving only one card in the tent.

I'm not angry as much as I'm frustrated that such a lack of control prevents us from making the money we should in the short amount of time we have to make it. Tonight, I have a whole new group of dealers in BJ and I'll stay closer to the action.

Thoughts?

Thanks