Counting Practice Question from a NOOB
April 8th, 2013 at 1:44:32 PM
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I am at the point where I can count down a deck of cards pretty cold. I had a trip planned to AC this past weekend and decided to see if I could keep track during a live game. Sitting at third base, I realized I was able to keep the count until it was my turn to act. As soon as I looked down at my hand and had to ask for a few cards, the count totally left my mind. My question is, how do you keep track in your mind while playing a hand? For example, I'll say (in my head) 8 vs a 10, count is -7, hit. Got a five, now have 13, count is -6, hit. Got a 2 now have 15, count is uhhhhhh. I've been a BS player for years and was a little surprised I had such trouble essentially maintaining two sets of simple numbers. I have no doubt it will become more second nature as I practice but just curious as to if you guys could recommend a more efficient way for me to train myself. I also have to work on watching other people's hands without looking like I'm ogling a stripper, but I'm sure that will happen naturally as well.
Hope that makes sense. I'm excited about having made my first thread on WoV. Been a big fan of the Wizard for many years, and love the general knowledge, experience and personalities of most of the folks I've read in this forum in general.
Hope that makes sense. I'm excited about having made my first thread on WoV. Been a big fan of the Wizard for many years, and love the general knowledge, experience and personalities of most of the folks I've read in this forum in general.
April 8th, 2013 at 1:53:44 PM
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Hands containing soft aces, which eventually bust, are the worst. It just takes practice, like anything else. You, or a friend, can deal multiple hands to yourself at home and practice counting while playing them. Welcome to the forums.
100% risk of ruin
April 8th, 2013 at 3:06:35 PM
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While you are practicing, don't be ashamed to use a stack of chips to hold the count. Keep 10 chips in a stack, and subtly shift the top X, where x is the count. Play your hand, note the count of the HAND, and go back to your chips. Then shuffle (or knock over... hee hee) the chips and go back to keeping the count in your head.
Counting a deck is one skill. Next you have to learn to cancel count hands and the table. You will also find it helps to just 'see' your hand (a 7,3, hit get a 5, hit get a 10, quick, it gets scooped. What was the count? Oh, it's a +1 hand).
I was once great at deck counting and seriously intimidated by the speed of casino BJ. I was scared my practice was for nothing. ~10 years later... it's almost boring I'm so good at counting. Doesn't mean I actually make any money, conditions are tight. Just nice to know you have a light edge.
Counting a deck is one skill. Next you have to learn to cancel count hands and the table. You will also find it helps to just 'see' your hand (a 7,3, hit get a 5, hit get a 10, quick, it gets scooped. What was the count? Oh, it's a +1 hand).
I was once great at deck counting and seriously intimidated by the speed of casino BJ. I was scared my practice was for nothing. ~10 years later... it's almost boring I'm so good at counting. Doesn't mean I actually make any money, conditions are tight. Just nice to know you have a light edge.
Wisdom is the quality that keeps you out of situations where you would otherwise need it
April 8th, 2013 at 3:29:18 PM
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Here is a drill:
Flip 2-3 cards at a time. Announce the hand total out loud, while simultaneously keeping the running count (silently of course). Add distractions as you get better.
Flip 2-3 cards at a time. Announce the hand total out loud, while simultaneously keeping the running count (silently of course). Add distractions as you get better.
April 8th, 2013 at 5:36:58 PM
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Thanks for the replies. Just the kind of stuff I am looking for.
April 8th, 2013 at 5:46:11 PM
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I like the idea of keeping track of the count with a stack of chips. Haven't heard that one before. I'll have to try that as I practice at home with chips and keep track of my win loss ratio. I really wish it would work out at the casino like it does on my kitchen table!! I turned $300 into $2500. If it was only that easy at the casino!
April 8th, 2013 at 6:05:15 PM
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Quote: Mikey75I like the idea of keeping track of the count with a stack of chips. Haven't heard that one before. I'll have to try that as I practice at home with chips and keep track of my win loss ratio. I really wish it would work out at the casino like it does on my kitchen table!! I turned $300 into $2500. If it was only that easy at the casino!
Yeah, sigh... it's always easier in your home. Probably because you aren't afraid to press the betting in a positive count when it's "pretend" money in your kitchen. The other thing that new counters sometimes fail to realize is that you will lose the most money in good counts. Simply because you put more at risk. When the count is negative you bet table min. or Wong out. When it gets going good you bet more and of course sometimes you lose more. It's been said on this board more than once if you don't lose the most money in positive counts you are doing something wrong. Of course you win the most too. But counting gives only a small edge not a guarantee of victory.
April 8th, 2013 at 7:55:30 PM
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don't bother to count in AC.. Enless your bankroll is well north of 100k the only playable count games in AC or at the 50 dollars level.. but most are at the 100 dollars level with a few stores....
if ur serious about counting you need a serious bankroll or you are just gambling..30-40k should do it counting at the green chip level
if ur serious about counting you need a serious bankroll or you are just gambling..30-40k should do it counting at the green chip level
April 8th, 2013 at 9:19:46 PM
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At Eliot Jacobson's Advantage Play Seminar (see A.P. Heat!), he disclosed his computations as to how much a perfect card counter would theoretically make in blackjack if he could vary his bet from $0 (sitting out) to $100 over 100 dealt hands. Of course I am not at liberty to disclose his computations here, but let's just say it is MUCH smaller than most people probably think it is (I was very surprised). Thus, if you aren't able to bet hundreds per hand, then it probably isn't even worth bothering.
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Aug 6, 2024
April 8th, 2013 at 11:54:14 PM
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Quote: Mikey75I like the idea of keeping track of the count with a stack of chips. Haven't heard that one before. I'll have to try that as I practice at home with chips and keep track of my win loss ratio. I really wish it would work out at the casino like it does on my kitchen table!! I turned $300 into $2500. If it was only that easy at the casino!
umm..ugh.... -raises hand- been there, done that... a couple times. :D The problem was leaving while I was ahead.. that I wasnt so successful at.
1 time 300 into 2,800 and another time 200 into 2,500. :D
"Although men flatter themselves with their great actions, they are not so often the result of a great design as of chance." - Francois De La Rochefoucauld
April 9th, 2013 at 12:06:59 AM
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I am not sure about this but, I don't think you can use chips to count cards in a casino.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 9th, 2013 at 4:30:12 AM
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Quote: Mikey75I like the idea of keeping track of the count with a stack of chips. Haven't heard that one before. I'll have to try that as I practice at home with chips and keep track of my win loss ratio. I really wish it would work out at the casino like it does on my kitchen table!! I turned $300 into $2500. If it was only that easy at the casino!
Don't do it, Mikey. It could be a big tell to the pit and especially to surveillance. Keep practicing until it becomes so automatic that you won't need any of that. You'll get there if you truly want it.
In the meantime there are some things you can try during your learning process. Utilize the design on a single chip by pointing it at positions on a clock. Point the Eiffel Tower on the Paris chip or the bow and arrow on the Foxwoods chip at one o'clock for +1 etc. Put the chip on the left side of your stack for negative the and right side for positive counts. You could also devise something similar with your feet. Surveillance shouldn't be able to see them.
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
April 9th, 2013 at 8:04:45 AM
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That's a great idea!! Thanks. I had thought about the possbility of it attracting attention.
April 9th, 2013 at 8:21:19 AM
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Quote: smallcapgrowthdon't bother to count in AC.. Enless your bankroll is well north of 100k the only playable count games in AC or at the 50 dollars level.. but most are at the 100 dollars level with a few stores....
if ur serious about counting you need a serious bankroll or you are just gambling..30-40k should do it counting at the green chip level
Quote: jonAt Eliot Jacobson's Advantage Play Seminar (see A.P. Heat!), he disclosed his computations as to how much a perfect card counter would theoretically make in blackjack if he could vary his bet from $0 (sitting out) to $100 over 100 dealt hands. Of course I am not at liberty to disclose his computations here, but let's just say it is MUCH smaller than most people probably think it is (I was very surprised). Thus, if you aren't able to bet hundreds per hand, then it probably isn't even worth bothering.
I could be wrong, but I think that most of the posters in this forum are aware of the hurdles that need to be overcome in order to do this with the serious intent of making money. Whether or not one decides to tackle those challenges is an individual choice. For me, this is more about challenging myself and mastering the skill as opposed to something I see as a money making opportunity. It's certainly possible that will change with time.
Last edited by: unnamed administrator on Aug 6, 2024
May 7th, 2013 at 7:11:47 PM
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Get Casino Verite, you can make it as challenging as you want it- great software !!
Much better than counting actual decks. Also there are many apps for your phone that can give you good practice.
I also glued 8 decks to poster board and hung on wall, w/ each row being 1 deck shuffled, you can start anywhere to mix it. I picked 5 starting points, and alternate them. This has helped a bunch for RC.
I also made a smaller 1 so I could practice anywhere, on the treadmill/stairmaster etc..
For true count just memorize it for whatever game/count system you play- so you do not have to calculate it.
I use a chart to do that- just make it for the games you play DD,4D, 6D etc.
Next is the i18, which can give you a bit more of an edge.
Once you have mastered all this, then you can try and put it to test in a real casino !
Which is another challenge !!
You basically just need to dedicate yourself to BJ to become an AP( which I am not !), once you have the knowledge , then it's practice, practice, practice ( outside the casino) When I 1st started I made myself practice an hr . or more per day!
Good luck !! I figure I will have it another 10 years .
My learning curve has been slowed by alcoholism, I get shit drunk every time I play . So I may not even be around in 10 yrs.
Anyways, see you at the table. I will be the drunk guy, that bets table min. all night,then for the hell( wink) of it bets table max .
Much better than counting actual decks. Also there are many apps for your phone that can give you good practice.
I also glued 8 decks to poster board and hung on wall, w/ each row being 1 deck shuffled, you can start anywhere to mix it. I picked 5 starting points, and alternate them. This has helped a bunch for RC.
I also made a smaller 1 so I could practice anywhere, on the treadmill/stairmaster etc..
For true count just memorize it for whatever game/count system you play- so you do not have to calculate it.
I use a chart to do that- just make it for the games you play DD,4D, 6D etc.
Next is the i18, which can give you a bit more of an edge.
Once you have mastered all this, then you can try and put it to test in a real casino !
Which is another challenge !!
You basically just need to dedicate yourself to BJ to become an AP( which I am not !), once you have the knowledge , then it's practice, practice, practice ( outside the casino) When I 1st started I made myself practice an hr . or more per day!
Good luck !! I figure I will have it another 10 years .
My learning curve has been slowed by alcoholism, I get shit drunk every time I play . So I may not even be around in 10 yrs.
Anyways, see you at the table. I will be the drunk guy, that bets table min. all night,then for the hell( wink) of it bets table max .
" If I had the money and the drinking capacity, I'd probably live at a blackjak table and let my life go to hell." Don Pedro
May 7th, 2013 at 7:19:40 PM
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I used the chip method mentioned earlier in this thread my last time out. It worked great and didn't bring any heat. Of course as luck would have it I never really had a count high enough to really vary my bets. Overall I lost on BJ but made it up on craps. By the end of my stay I played one last round of BJ and found that the counting came much easier that last round. I kept the count without any problems and kept it with a chip as well to back me up if I needed it. I nervously played with the chips all night even at the craps table so I don't think it would raise a flag for me at all.
May 31st, 2013 at 2:22:29 PM
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The chip idea is a good one anything with "fondle" value at the table can be used in discretion...for example I learned a trick when I was just starting out after reading "The world's greatest blackjack book ever" by Lance Humble and Carl Cooper The had a section devoted to just this question but in the book one suggestion was a lighter with scratches in one side a bigger one in the middle using your fingernail simply move up or down from the middle according to the play of the cards no need for the count in your head simply look at your lighter and see how far away you are from the middle and bam remembering running count solved plus so many smokers at the table that a lighter is pretty inconspicuous :) Good luck and keep practicing to achieve greatness
June 1st, 2013 at 4:14:31 PM
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Quote: gts4everI am at the point where I can count down a deck of cards pretty cold. I had a trip planned to AC this past weekend and decided to see if I could keep track during a live game. Sitting at third base, I realized I was able to keep the count until it was my turn to act. As soon as I looked down at my hand and had to ask for a few cards, the count totally left my mind. My question is, how do you keep track in your mind while playing a hand? For example, I'll say (in my head) 8 vs a 10, count is -7, hit. Got a five, now have 13, count is -6, hit. Got a 2 now have 15, count is uhhhhhh. I've been a BS player for years and was a little surprised I had such trouble essentially maintaining two sets of simple numbers. I have no doubt it will become more second nature as I practice but just curious as to if you guys could recommend a more efficient way for me to train myself. I also have to work on watching other people's hands without looking like I'm ogling a stripper, but I'm sure that will happen naturally as well.
It takes a while to get past that hurdle of not getting mixed up with the count and the card totals. So when you get a count and you know the dealer is going to say the total just keep repeating the count to yourself. Or you can just keep saying it out loud so the person who is helping you practice it can remember it too. The point is that it doesn't make much of a difference where you start from because it involves training your brain.
I have a training list if you want to see it.
The Terror of Casinos.
June 11th, 2013 at 4:12:26 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfI am not sure about this but, I don't think you can use chips to count cards in a casino.
They aren't talking about using chips to count, but using chips to hold the value of the count. I can't imagine a situation where a floor supervisor would come over and tell a player they weren't allowed to have their chips is arbitrary stack sizes. Considering the ruckus many players create with their chips someone stacking them in a given height, or order to keep track of a value would be a welcome relief, at least to the dealer.
June 11th, 2013 at 5:13:46 AM
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Quote: smallcapgrowthdon't bother to count in AC.. Enless your bankroll is well north of 100k the only playable count games in AC or at the 50 dollars level.. but most are at the 100 dollars level with a few stores....
It should be fine for practicing. You get real casino, real dealer, real game, etc., all but the heat.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
June 18th, 2013 at 11:36:41 AM
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Last edited by: Tanko on Mar 9, 2016
June 18th, 2013 at 11:52:35 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 30th, 2013 at 8:31:08 AM
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Quote: TankoI agree.
Card counters don't win any more hands than the average.
The supposed .22% to 0.5% player edge with card counting is only theoretical.
So, your chance of winning that eight-unit bet is a coin toss at best.
The dealer can get those cards as easily as you.
Except that if the dealer gets the natural, she only wins 1 unit from you. If you get the natural, you win 1.5 units.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
October 30th, 2013 at 11:52:43 AM
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You have the opportunity to double and the dealer doesn't. You have the opportunity to stand with a hand less than 17 and the dealer doesn't. You have the ability to split and the dealer doesn't. You can surrender (some games) and the dealer can't. You must complete your hand before the dealer acts. And so on. The game is not at all symmetric.Quote: AcesAndEightsExcept that if the dealer gets the natural, she only wins 1 unit from you. If you get the natural, you win 1.5 units.
To address Jon's point above, with a 6D game, DOA, DAS, H17, cut card at 52 cards and a $100 max bet, the absolute upper bound is $33.68 per 100 hands for the card counter using High-Low.
Climate Casino: https://climatecasino.net/climate-casino/
October 30th, 2013 at 1:01:59 PM
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With enough practice, you'll soon be able to act on your cards (hit/stand etc) without actually adding up your card total -- you'll just kind of have the images of the cards linked to the correct action. That helps keep track of the count.
One thing I do which works very well is keep one hand on your knee under the table, and press however many fingers that equals the count. If you think this is risky, it really really isn't. First, your hand is barely visible to anyone. Second, even if it were in plain view of a camera, you're not sticking fingers out -- you're just changing the pressure which only you can feel. How do you go past 5? pinky = 5. pinky + thumb = 6. etc. then, pinky + ring finger = 10. pinky + ring + thumb = 11. You'll very rarely get to counts of +15 or more.
I sometimes lose track of whether the count I have is positive or negative. The best way to work around that is recall the last couple of deals. Close your eyes and remember the plays. No one's rushing you, even if it's your turn to act.
When all is said and done, if you can't recall the count, you start back at a running count of 0 and pretend that you didn't see any cards at all. That means you should consider the discarded cards as cards that could still show up. In other words, the "deck number" goes back up to the number of decks, NOT the number of decks left to be dealt. This is how you should start your count when you enter a table that's halfway done.
One thing I do which works very well is keep one hand on your knee under the table, and press however many fingers that equals the count. If you think this is risky, it really really isn't. First, your hand is barely visible to anyone. Second, even if it were in plain view of a camera, you're not sticking fingers out -- you're just changing the pressure which only you can feel. How do you go past 5? pinky = 5. pinky + thumb = 6. etc. then, pinky + ring finger = 10. pinky + ring + thumb = 11. You'll very rarely get to counts of +15 or more.
I sometimes lose track of whether the count I have is positive or negative. The best way to work around that is recall the last couple of deals. Close your eyes and remember the plays. No one's rushing you, even if it's your turn to act.
When all is said and done, if you can't recall the count, you start back at a running count of 0 and pretend that you didn't see any cards at all. That means you should consider the discarded cards as cards that could still show up. In other words, the "deck number" goes back up to the number of decks, NOT the number of decks left to be dealt. This is how you should start your count when you enter a table that's halfway done.
October 30th, 2013 at 1:44:55 PM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 31st, 2013 at 9:03:11 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesWhen exactly do you have the counter jump in? What if he waits until a higher count?
If he waits for a higher count he'll earn less money.
October 31st, 2013 at 11:36:08 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 31st, 2013 at 11:45:13 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesPer hour sure, but I'm talking about per hand(s).
Your distribution of plus counts doesn't change and your average win per hand remains the same. If you're getting 50 hands per hour it doesn't matter whether you play 100 hands or 2 hours. You'll make the same amount less either way if you wait for higher counts.
October 31st, 2013 at 11:50:46 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 31st, 2013 at 11:52:39 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesSo you're saying 100 hands with a 0.75% edge will net me the same exact amount of money as 100 hands with a 1.65% edge?
You're flatbetting $100. You're losing the money you would be making on the lower counts where you still have an advantage. You'd still be betting the same higher counts either way.
October 31st, 2013 at 11:53:27 AM
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
