Zen Count VS Revere Point Count

Hey everyone, Im trying to advance to a better card counting system. Ive narrowed it down to the Zen and the Revere Count.
I am pulled between the two very much as in which one to pick up. A big factor is not just the system but also the book that will be teaching it.
For the Zen, I found that Blackbelt in Blackjack is the way to go and for the Revere I found that Playing Blackjack as a Business is the best.
Please help me decide!

You've posted what is effectively the same OP within minutes, so I am deleting the other one. Please discontinue posting creating threads virtually identical to one another, there are a few professional Blackjack players that regularly post on this Forum, so I imagine that your question will be answered in due time. I am also moving this thread to the Blackjack Sub-Forum because that may get you a quicker reply than general discussion.

zen count is a powerful level two count... but it seriously is not going to make that much of a different in your results... I use zen and i switched from hi low a couple of months ago. I achieve some great positive flux when i switch counts but i truly think it was just a concidence. Anyhow.. if you serious. practice every single day for 2 hours a day and learn full indexes.... it should take you a month to a month and a half to really sink in..


fyi....... the count you use is not the mort important think.. find good pen, heads up games, and then good rules... play faster.. this makes more of an impact than what count you use........

by the way... what ever you do not use the zen edge method found in the blackjack blackbetl by arnold synder... Get the same book but the 1983 "count per pack " version....

here is a link to all the full indexes

http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/Zen_Count_Indices.htm

us a true count conversion (just like you would use for hi low)

tags are

A=-1
2,3,7=+1
4,5,6=+2
8,9=0
10's=-2


hope this helps

There is an ongoing debate in the blackjack community as to just how much benefit a 'higher' level count is really worth (as smallcapgrowth and a few others that are members of multiple sites can attest to). Simulations will show a 5-10% increase depending on the exact game and rules. I personally, am a believer that in the real world of play, any such increase is very minimal, especially in this age of less advantageous games and conditions. Just one or two extra small mistakes or a little bit earlier fatiguing will more than wipe out any advantage gained.

I don't use the word 'professional' to describe myself because I feel the term 'professional' implies a level of expertise that I have not yet achieved, but I am now in my 10th year of supporting myself solely from blackjack advantage play. I use hi-lo. I started with hi-lo 10 years ago, switched to RPC after 5 years thinking as you do, that it would improve my game and results. After 18 months of playing RPC, I realized it makes little difference what count you play. What is important is that you play it as well as you can. So after 18 months of RPC, I switched back to hi-lo, where I am today.

One of my favorite quotes on the subject comes from one of my fellow players who is a professional in every sense of the word. He says "what count a player plays is one of the least important decisions that he makes". Another strong case for my position comes from Don Schlesinger, author of 'Blackjack Attack 3'. Mr Schlesinger plays RPC which he learned decades ago, I believe from Revere himself. But he says that if he was starting out today and knew everything that he now knows, he would stick with hi-lo. I think that speaks volumes. And finally, you have to ask yourself, if it really makes that much difference, why did most of the blackjack teams that we know about, including the MIT teams all use hi-lo? Most of these teams were made up of some pretty smart, 'math-heavy' dudes. They certainly could have handles more complex counts, but they didn't. In the grand scheme of things.....what count you choose just isn't that important, especially in today's game. It doesn't improve your game as much as you think. There are much more important things that you can do to improve your game.

Quote: chrisgibson

Hey everyone, Im trying to advance to a better card counting system. Ive narrowed it down to the Zen and the Revere Count.
I am pulled between the two very much as in which one to pick up. A big factor is not just the system but also the book that will be teaching it.
For the Zen, I found that Blackbelt in Blackjack is the way to go and for the Revere I found that Playing Blackjack as a Business is the best.
Please help me decide!

What are your goals and playing style? Are you going to play socially, semi professionally or professionally? What count are you now using? How many hours a month/year do you plan on playing? Pitch or shoe games? Marathon sessions or short sessions? Wonging in, out or both? There's not much I can add right now to the excellent advice that you've already gotten here.

I used Zen for many years and it never once let me down. I say used because I've gone back to Hi-Lo for a few reasons. Blackjack has been good to me and I no longer have to go to 'work' every day for the sole purpose of making money. I play mostly shoe games and am enjoying the social aspect more. The main reason is that a few years ago I taught two close family members the game and insisted that they learn Hi-Lo before anything else. After reading a book or two they thought they were ready for a level 2 or even a level 3 count. Ah, to be young. I told them Hi-Lo or the highway.

There is no question that Zen will get you more money than Hi-Lo and I'm perfectly fine with that but I honestly haven't seen that much of a difference in the past few years that I have gone back.

my recommendation is if you are using hi low right now to stick with it for this reason. It seriously will take you one month to 1.5 months of time to learn a new count. in that time, the EV lost from switching will not be made up by a new count even if you play with no mistakes... What I would do first is, (if you using hi low) would be to learn full indexes.. You will gain a lot of you learn all of them. YOu can learn new ones slowly and not take anytime off from playing. Just make flash cards and practice, they are easy enough to learn.


If you experience backoffs or heat and you need to limit your play for a couple of months, this is a great time to improve your game or switch counts (if that's what you choose to do) because you can't play anyway. That is what I did. I got backed off a bunch of places and needed to take some time off to return. Didn't really play much for 2 months and switched counts.. Then I went back to the casinos on different shifts. Also try to add more bags of trick to your arsenal (just research and you will find some stuff, though no one is going to spoon feed anyone anything). Enless you live in las vegas..... it is very hard to make 50k or more from counting if you are not willing to travel to other places because the hit and run type of plays don't really work of outside of area's populated with many close casinos.

what stakes do you play, maybe this advice is off if you are red chipping it