Bacc: Won 3 1/2 hrs straight

https://pressofatlanticcity.com/business/trump-taj-mahal-fined-after-workers-fail-to-detect-unshuffled/article_c09cf7b8-c4a9-11e1-8816-0019bb2963f4.html

Seven patrons amassed nearly $400,000 in winnings at mini-Baccarat.

THE CARDS WERE UNSHUFFLED!
It took 3 1/2 hrs to deal 8 decks.

No idea how many hands that was.
8 decks x 52 cards = 43264 cards
4 cards dealt in bacc at a minimum so 43264/4 = 104 hands at most


Similar thing happened to Golden Nugget.
Patrons won 41 straight hands in Bacc for $1.5M:
https://deadspin.com/casino-fails-to-shuffle-cards-sues-gamblers-who-won-1-5936313

Mini-Bacc, and cards were also unshuffled.
But Golden Nugget is suing them for the $ back claiming they shouldn't have to pay out their winnings.

A mistake like this happened at a tiny cardroom up here one time on Texas Shootout. They caught the mistake on the second hand dealt.

How in the name of all that is holy does the game continue for hours without surveillance, a supervisor, or a dealer noticing the cards aren't shuffled?

Quote: Deucekies

A mistake like this happened at a tiny cardroom up here one time on Texas Shootout. They caught the mistake on the second hand dealt.

How in the name of all that is holy does the game continue for hours without surveillance, a supervisor, or a dealer noticing the cards aren't shuffled?

link to original post

That sequence is just as likely to come out of a shuffler at any given point in time

Heh heh. And here I was rolling my eyes at claims of winning 60 card hands in a row, or figuring out how to beat baccarat. Let's see, it's eight new packs of cards and...

Player dealt ... ace of clubs
Banker dealt ... two of clubs
Player dealt ... three of clubs
Banker dealt ... four of clubs
Player hits ... five of clubs

I don"t think we need the Wizard of Odds to calculate what cards the next hand might consist of.

Quote: Gialmere

Heh heh. And here I was rolling my eyes at claims of winning 60 card hands in a row, or figuring out how to beat baccarat. Let's see, it's eight new packs of cards and...

Player dealt ... ace of clubs
Banker dealt ... two of clubs
Player dealt ... three of clubs
Banker dealt ... four of clubs
Player hits ... five of clubs

I don"t think we need the Wizard of Odds to calculate what cards the next hand might consist of.

link to original post

I believe they were using manufacturer "shuffled" 8-deck sets. The manufacturer didn't actually shuffle the decks; they were all sorted to an order other than new deck sequential.

At every Vegas casino at which I play Baccarat,. they all use these decks of cards that come to the table either:
1. Pre shuffled inside a cardboard sealed package that is opened via a sort of paper jagged pull, that is something like the way a FEDEX or USPS flat rate package is opened.
2. Pre shuffled inside a crystal plastic box, with a zip tie on it.

I understand that the pre-shuffled, pre-packaged in sealed paper box cards come from a manufacturer who shuffles them. The cards inside the crystal plastic box have been shuffled by dealers in a room, who sit there and do nothing but shuffle cards.

In any case, all of the casinos nowadays receive cards at the Baccarat table that are pre-shuffled.

Some of them, take the cards right out of the package, present them for player cut, and the game commences immediately.
Some, give the cards one more shuffle at the table, and then present for player cut.
Some, stick the pre-shuffled cards into a card shuffling machine at the table, for about ten more minutes of shuffle.

I understand that the reason the one Vegas casino gives the cards one more shuffle, is precisely because one time the cards arrived unshuffled, and players figured it out, and the pit boss didn't notice until some point in the shoe. This was not publicized, no one was sued, and the casino ate the loss, but changed their policy for fear that it might happen again.

I have read about both 2012 cases mentioned above: at the Taj Mahal, I understand that the casino was fined and the players got away with their winnings. Yes, I did read that the Golden Nugget sued the winners in that case, but I understand that the casino lost the case, at least at the Superior Court level:
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20120901005006/en/New-Jersey-Superior-Court-Rules-in-Favor-of-Three-Wronged-Chinese-Players-at-Atlantic-City%E2%80%99s-Golden-Nugget
Friday's ruling affirmed that the Golden Nugget acted inappropriately in singling out and bullying these players and is a validation that they were horribly mistreated,” said Benjamin Dash. “While the players are pleased the court decided in their favor regarding the validation of chips, the remainder of their claims for false imprisonment and ethnic discrimination, among others, remain subject to ongoing litigation.”
In that case, Golden Nugget owner Tilman Fertitta tried to settle the case after losing by offering to cash all the remaining chips the players were holding and waive further appeal, if the players would drop their ongoing claims against the casino, but some of the players refused. By that point, the players wanted more than just their chips cashed, they understandably also wanted their attorney fees reimbursed, and other damages such as for false imprisonment addressed.
https://www.courierpostonline.com/story/money/business/2014/09/24/unshuffled-cards-game-golden-nugget-ruled-legal/16165119/
Unclear what happened after that.

I just realized how old this article is

They don't wash the cards like they do in BJ?

Quote: billryan

They don't wash the cards like they do in BJ?

link to original post

Washing at the table might make sense where a set of cards will be played more than once.

Some casinos play the cards only once and destroy them, to accommodate the peculiar traditions and superstitions surrounding Baccarat.

Since returning to play a few years ago, I have not seen any Vegas casino I play at wash cards, not at Baccarat not at Blackjack. That - and "lacing" cards seems to be something that went by the wayside. Lacing disappeared - I think - just before my time, and washing seems to have disappeared more recently.

Washing is just an additional step in the randomizing of cards, and back when they used to do it they would in fact do it at grand Baccarat tables (where cards are used only once), along with shuffling.

Shuffling machines or pre-packaged pre-shuffled cards seem to be the norm at both Baccarat and Blackjack these days, at least in Vegas everywhere I play. I assume that the pre-shuffled cards coming from manufacturers are simply machine shuffled. The cards that come in the crystal boxes that the dealers hand shuffle in a room - maybe they wash in addition to shuffling, I don't know.

The over all intent, at least anywhere I play in Vegas, is to just keep the game going and not give the dealer much to do other than just deal.

Wonder how much casinos spend on card stock each year. Has to be 10s of millions right? Do the casinos own the card stock companies?

Quote: ChallengedMilly

Wonder how much casinos spend on card stock each year. Has to be 10s of millions right? Do the casinos own the card stock companies?

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I believe Cartamundi is the current big player in the playing card market. Many gaming regulations seem to require that gaming equipment (including cards) be purchased from approved manufacturers through approved supply chains; I expect this somewhat limits a casino's ability to print their own in the basement.

As a private individual, I can buy a deck for around $3.

I expect a deck to have an average life expectancy of 1 hour.

Yeah, there's some money involved.

Used decks end up getting sold. With the scale casinos can buy at, I suspect they don't lose much when they sell the used ones for souvenirs.

Quote: billryan

Used decks end up getting sold. With the scale casinos can buy at, I suspect they don't lose much when they sell the used ones for souvenirs.

link to original post

Don't forget the donations to charities, hospitals, senior centers, etc. Those donations provide tax deductions.

I wouldn't be surprised if a casino got more value from a deduction than selling them in their gift shop.

Plus the cards are a deductible expense when bought by the casino.

Gosh, it might be +EV.

“Some of them, take the cards right out of the package, present them for player cut, and the game commences immediately.
Some, give the cards one more shuffle at the table, and then present for player cut.
Some, stick the pre-shuffled cards into a card shuffling machine at the table, for about ten more minutes of shuffle.”

The above is a quote from MDawg above in this thread.

Our casinos do take the prepackaged product and wash on the table in front of the players, then separate into 8 small piles and do a quick shuffle. Then into the machine. Once out of the machine after a period of time, if a player requests, the cards can be cut in half and then presented for a player cut.

Also do not forget about 10 years or so the Tran gang which hit about 50 casinos with cooperating dealers and set cards, non shuffled. The effects of that continue to this day.

Quote: Dieter

I believe they were using manufacturer "shuffled" 8-deck sets. The manufacturer didn't actually shuffle the decks; they were all sorted to an order other than new deck sequential.

link to original post

What order would that be? I assume it's in such a way that a casino employee can quickly examine them and confirm all the cards are present. Yet, evidently, it seems that if they are not shuffled and then played one at a time (even after a cut) the dealer doesn't notice any problem while all the players spot an obvious pattern to the tune of 400 grand.

Quote: Gialmere

Quote: Dieter

I believe they were using manufacturer "shuffled" 8-deck sets. The manufacturer didn't actually shuffle the decks; they were all sorted to an order other than new deck sequential.

link to original post

What order would that be? I assume it's in such a way that a casino employee can quickly examine them and confirm all the cards are present. Yet, evidently, it seems that if they are not shuffled and then played one at a time (even after a cut) the dealer doesn't notice any problem while all the players spot an obvious pattern to the tune of 400 grand.

link to original post

Sorry, I do not know what the sequence at the time was. I believe the manufacturer is now doing a shuffle.

If memory serves, one of the players had written down rank/suit for the whole shoe on their scorecard, and noticed on the next new sealed deck of cards that they saw a familiar pattern, and helped the entire table experience an amazing streak for the next few boxes of sealed cards.

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Gialmere

Quote: Dieter

I believe they were using manufacturer "shuffled" 8-deck sets. The manufacturer didn't actually shuffle the decks; they were all sorted to an order other than new deck sequential.

link to original post

What order would that be? I assume it's in such a way that a casino employee can quickly examine them and confirm all the cards are present. Yet, evidently, it seems that if they are not shuffled and then played one at a time (even after a cut) the dealer doesn't notice any problem while all the players spot an obvious pattern to the tune of 400 grand.

link to original post

Sorry, I do not know what the sequence at the time was. I believe the manufacturer is now doing a shuffle.

If memory serves, one of the players had written down rank/suit for the whole shoe on their scorecard, and noticed on the next new sealed deck of cards that they saw a familiar pattern, and helped the entire table experience an amazing streak for the next few boxes of sealed cards.

link to original post

On a side note but related in subject, in well over 15 years of being on the casino floor full time, I have never seen a player banned from the casino or restricted in anyway due to winning at baccarat.

All players are invited to use our provided scorecards and pens or bring their own. In fact many players bring logs and tally stat sheets of countless previous shoes on a clipboard to the table, it is permissible in every way.

But, win today and lose more tomorrow for almost all everyday or every night players that engage in shoe after shoe after shoe. Or, win for several days and likewise lose just as much shortly thereafter.

Never changes.

Quote: Marcusclark66

On a side note but related in subject, in well over 15 years of being on the casino floor full time, I have never seen a player banned from the casino or restricted in anyway due to winning at baccarat.

That's because other than cheating or some AP moves they know there is no way to continuously beat the game, this includes betting systems.

Well, he did say other than "some AP moves." I might not differ with that....

Quote: Marcusclark66

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Gialmere

Quote: Dieter

I believe they were using manufacturer "shuffled" 8-deck sets. The manufacturer didn't actually shuffle the decks; they were all sorted to an order other than new deck sequential.

link to original post

What order would that be? I assume it's in such a way that a casino employee can quickly examine them and confirm all the cards are present. Yet, evidently, it seems that if they are not shuffled and then played one at a time (even after a cut) the dealer doesn't notice any problem while all the players spot an obvious pattern to the tune of 400 grand.

link to original post

Sorry, I do not know what the sequence at the time was. I believe the manufacturer is now doing a shuffle.

If memory serves, one of the players had written down rank/suit for the whole shoe on their scorecard, and noticed on the next new sealed deck of cards that they saw a familiar pattern, and helped the entire table experience an amazing streak for the next few boxes of sealed cards.

link to original post

On a side note but related in subject, in well over 15 years of being on the casino floor full time, I have never seen a player banned from the casino or restricted in anyway due to winning at baccarat.

All players are invited to use our provided scorecards and pens or bring their own. In fact many players bring logs and tally stat sheets of countless previous shoes on a clipboard to the table, it is permissible in every way.

But, win today and lose more tomorrow for almost all everyday or every night players that engage in shoe after shoe after shoe. Or, win for several days and likewise lose just as much shortly thereafter.

Never changes.

link to original post

can i write down the EXACT order of the cards as they come out? and uh .. how close are your baccarat tables to the blackjack tables i like to watch the blackjack tables as im playing baccarat

Yes you can. Anything whatsoever in our properties as well as anywhere I have been and played or observed. Numbers as well as their suits.

Quote: AxelWolf

That's because other than cheating or some AP moves they know there is no way to continuously beat the game, this includes betting systems.

link to original post

I would have to disagree with you sir.

I would agree if a player engages in lengthy play on a continual basis.

Short, limited play and having the insight and calm neutral play to take advantage of short bursts of anything repetitious or non repetitious is an advantage in my experience. Namely 5 to 10 wagers, however as I outlined that is what I found to be profitable.

I believe that many or most automated shufflers count the cards, so there would be no reason to count the cards from a new deck before placing them in the shuffler.

Quote: Marcusclark66

Quote: AxelWolf

That's because other than cheating or some AP moves they know there is no way to continuously beat the game, this includes betting systems.

link to original post

I would have to disagree with you sir.

I would agree if a player engages in lengthy play on a continual basis.

Short, limited play and having the insight and calm neutral play to take advantage of short bursts of anything repetitious or non repetitious is an advantage in my experience. Namely 5 to 10 wagers, however as I outlined that is what I found to be profitable.

link to original post

I would have to disagree with you sir.
Your post is without merit. Your belief is misguided.

60

Quote: Marcusclark66

Quote: AxelWolf

That's because other than cheating or some AP moves they know there is no way to continuously beat the game, this includes betting systems.

link to original post

I would have to disagree with you sir.

I would agree if a player engages in lengthy play on a continual basis.

Short, limited play and having the insight and calm neutral play to take advantage of short bursts of anything repetitious or non repetitious is an advantage in my experience. Namely 5 to 10 wagers, however as I outlined that is what I found to be profitable.

link to original post

Because there is 0 chance you could do a short 5 or 10 hand session and lose all 5 or 10 hands!

I don't want other players at my tables, not at Baccarat not at Blackjack. I don't want them influencing me, I don't want them slowing down the game, I don't want them smoking around me - which is why I elevated my lines to the point where I play private Reserved tables at some of the Vegas casinos.

BUT, as far as whether other players WIN, empty the trays at the tables, WHO CARES? Why would I care or why would it bother me in the least that someone else is WINNING? More power to them.

Quote: MDawg

I don't want other players at my tables, not at Baccarat not at Blackjack. I don't want them influencing me, I don't want them slowing down the game, I don't want them smoking around me - which is why I elevated my lines to the point where I play private Reserved tables at some of the Vegas casinos.

BUT, as far as whether other players WIN, empty the trays at the tables, WHO CARES? Why would I care or why would it bother me in the least that someone else is WINNING? More power to them.

link to original post

In the spirit of keeping discussion of the rules outside of other threads, I respectfully ask that MDawg explain to me by PM why this post is not a thread hijack. I see no reference to the influence of other players, nor anyone mentioning the value of reserved private tables.