Pai Gow Poker: RF + Royal Match Fortune Bonus Hit (1 in 2,100,000)
Royal Flush Plus Royal Match* | 2,000 to 1 | $1,000 Envy Bonus
Just another weekend gambling at Golden Nugget AC. Ship the envy bonus.
Quote: chaunceyb3
Royal Flush + Royal Match* | 2000:1 | $1000 Envy Bonus
Just another weekend gambling at Golden Nugget AC. Ship the envy bonus.
I've been trying to get that hand for 20+ years. Envy, indeed! Congrats! Where's the 10K? I only see $50 there.
Quote: IbeatyouracesIs there a pay difference if it's a natural royal and royal match?
The two-card Royal match must be natural, the royal itself, no. Here's a link. There is usually a pay table difference between a 7-card natural straight flush and a wild 7-card SF, the real hard hand to make.
Quote: PaigowdanThe two-card Royal match must be natural, the royal itself, no. Here's a link. There is usually a pay table difference between a 7-card natural straight flush and a wild 7-card SF, the real hard hand to make.
Thanks Dan. I'm being lazy today :-)
Pretty cool arrangement of cards to see, that's for sure =).
Romes - that's a $5 bet to win $10,000. And, anyone else with $5 or more on the bonus bet gets $1,000 for playing in the hand.
Quote: ahiromuIt exists?
Yes, but it has to "like" you, - or so it seems. I will admit it does not feel or seem fair. These big hands seem to occur at the variance that the gremlins of gamblin' decide.
I've had three Royals in PGP, and ZERO five Aces. I dealt TWO 7-card SF's (one natural), about five, five Aces, and a million dog hands. I've seen two 7-card SF's happen within a month at one place, and SIX happen on a monthly basis at Stations in 2011 or thereabouts; the progressive was stuck at $6,000 or so for a while.
It makes neither rhyme or reason, except to say that rare jackpot hands "seem" to coagulate, - while maintaining its statistical frequency over the eons. Nobody notices when a player gets two or three full houses or straight flushes back-to-back to win $50 or $75 total or even $500 or a thousand total - very rare but unnoticeable outlays.
But the very same thing happens on a larger scale for these larger hands - local variances happen in a huge way, too. They merely seem to us as to bunch - and always missing me in the process!! #$%#%!!
Caesars and Harrah's had a few "Million Dollar Six Card Diamond Royals" pay out on their games in a bunch to the point where they investigated internally, and found it not only clean, but that it had also stopped "popping up" to where they made money on the Nickel "go for the million" side bets.
In the meanwhile, casino operators either shell out blood or collect big time within these periods.
Please help me here.
The low hand is a pair of Kings?
The high hand is a Straight.
When you combine the Joker and the Dealers King with the almost RF, you get the RF?
And the Envy Bonus pays? Or some other side bet?
Quote: ten2winI've not played much PGP.
Please help me here.
The low hand is a pair of Kings?
The high hand is a Straight.
When you combine the Joker and the Dealers King with the almost RF, you get the RF?
And the Envy Bonus pays? Or some other side bet?
I believe the side bet you use any 5 cards no matter how you set your hand.
Quote: GWAEI believe the side bet you use any 5 cards no matter how you set your hand.
That's correct most of the time. I have heard of instances (second-hand info) where the bet only pays according to the way you set your hand, so make triple sure!
Quote: GWAEI believe the side bet you use any 5 cards no matter how you set your hand.
Or, in this case, 7 cards. The suited kq makes the hand 16 times better than a royal alone.
Quote: ActuarialThat's correct most of the time. I have heard of instances (second-hand info) where the bet only pays according to the way you set your hand, so make triple sure!
This is not the case, except in errors of game-play dealing, or in management of Pai Gow poker play.
Pai Gow Poker games have been unilaterally approved for casino play by virtually all gaming jurisdictions where the side bets pay on the contents of the player's full 7-card hand, -- regardless of how the player had decided to set his hand for main game's best play. In other words, you got dealt that hand, you cannot be denied that hand's win.
*Except in extremely rare case where the individual casino declares by written table notice otherwise the size of a Los Angeles Highway Billboard, of which there does not seem to be the case anymore for these exceptions. In these cases, just set the hand to a Royal+Royal match hand setting.
--You know, on a $10,000 bonus win, a casino operator cannot claim to default on the bonus win for playing the better of a main-game hand setting - for a $15 main bet difference - as you were indeed dealt it in your seven card hand. The casino just pays it to you if they dealt it to you - as you were clearly dealt that bonus hand.
In this case, I would have played the Royal with the Royal match, not for this rule, but in case a freaking poker-blind surveillance worker was on duty, with me not worried about a $10 or $15 main bet......you know, playing a Royal Straight Flush with a KQ as its top is NOT a hand that I would EVER worry about as for the main bet result....
The hand would then be re-arranged (usually security requires this for the tape and the floors to look at) to show the hearts in the back (the joker completes the royal) with the suited KQ in the other hand for the royal marriage with the RF, to make the bonus hand. If it had been set this way to compete with the dealer, it would have been a legal set, but much weaker than the strategic set above.
CET properties, for years, had a different bonus paytable (still called "fortune" PGP) where they required you to set the hand for the bonus you wanted to win to get it, and paid double for the set hand in the back plus a pair up top. It was disadvantageous to set a FH with trips in back and pairs up, which is almost always (if not always) the correct set by EV to win the hand (can't remember exactly how the paytable punished you, but it was to give the house an added advantage on not losing against FH's; they paid a FH set in the back at 6:1, rather than 5:1, but if you set trips and pair, you were only paid for 3OAK). It would have been especially disastrous against 5 Aces, as you would have to set all 5 in back and the leftovers up top to win the bonus; I can't imagine they paid the 5Aces+Pair (double) once, if ever.
I'm guessing they played this way for 10 years or so (maybe 1995-2005 or so?), and finally changed to the "fortune" bet as everybody else plays it, letting a hand be set strategically but still winning a bonus. Played it at Rio and Harrah's several times, found that paytable very frustrating. I don't know of anybody else who was using this paytable during that time, and I'm glad it's gone.
Of all the big hands in PGP, it seems like the RF + RM is by far the easiest to miss. I know quite a few PGP dealers who would think that hand is just a royal flush.
I've got to wonder, with only a few dollars in the main bet, if I would set that hand with the RF in the back just to be extra safe that all casino employees see the 2,000-to-1 winner as soon as possible.
Quote: sodawaterChauncey -- I am interested if the winning player knew exactly what s/he had there. How did he or she react? Was the table aware of the hand before the cards were opened?
Of all the big hands in PGP, it seems like the RF + RM is by far the easiest to miss. I know quite a few PGP dealers who would think that hand is just a royal flush.
I've got to wonder, with only a few dollars in the main bet, if I would set that hand with the RF in the back just to be extra safe that all casino employees see the 2,000-to-1 winner as soon as possible.
Excellent, excellent questions, sodawater!
Perhaps revealing the entire photo will answer both your questions! And confirm every statement you made!
Have a look. Now, do you notice anything strange going on here?!
Quote: sodawaterChauncey -- I am interested if the winning player knew exactly what s/he had there. How did he or she react? Was the table aware of the hand before the cards were opened?
Of all the big hands in PGP, it seems like the RF + RM is by far the easiest to miss. I know quite a few PGP dealers who would think that hand is just a royal flush.
I've got to wonder, with only a few dollars in the main bet, if I would set that hand with the RF in the back just to be extra safe that all casino employees see the 2,000-to-1 winner as soon as possible.
I would set the hand as the big winner, or at least show the hand as that winner, - and then re-set it, - so that the dealer knows that I have that hand going in.
It doesn't matter if the player misses it; that is immaterial. It matters if that hand were dealt to you! The Player may very well miss it, but the dealer (or surveillance) should easily catch it. People may drink, or be distracted when they play.
It matters if it happened, and the casino sees it and pays it to you, even if you as the player missed it. You do not get paid on a bonus "*IF* you happen to see it. (Though you normally will). If matter only if you GET THAT HAND, and THAT THE CASINO PAYS YOU." You could be distracted, or even paying full attention and miss it - It is still your jackpot.
It is expected that the dealer and the floorman and surveillance also catch it and pays the player his or her due winnings in good faith.
Once, when my wife was playing Pai Gow Poker at the Eastside Cannery Casino, she said "Oh, Look! I have a King-high Straight with an Ace up! Good thing I now bet Ten dollars on the Bonus!! I win 2 to 1 after raising my bonus bet! GOODY!!!
Well...the kind dealer said: "No, lady - you have a Royal Flush - played as a King-high straight with an Ace on top. I shall pay you for the Royal, - because it is in YOUR HAND." My Mrs. Got paid. [Edit: unlike a lot of naysayers saying the casinos are always "evil people," I find dealers to be pretty honest referees. Very neutral - While it is never the dealer's personal money, and never taking shots on it - it is always the players personal money on the line, and who are often taking shots on it.]
Wife got paid when she missed it. All People Happy.
Quote: PaigowdanThis is not the case, except in errors of game-play dealing, or in management of Pai Gow poker play.
Pai Gow Poker games have been unilaterally approved for casino play by virtually all gaming jurisdictions where the side bets pay on the contents of the player's full 7-card hand, -- regardless of how the player had decided to set his hand for main game's best play. In other words, you got dealt that hand, you cannot be denied that hand's win.
*Except in extremely rare case where the individual casino declares by written table notice otherwise the size of a Los Angeles Highway Billboard, of which there does not seem to be the case anymore for these exceptions. In these cases, just set the hand to a Royal+Royal match hand setting.
--You know, on a $10,000 bonus win, a casino operator cannot claim to default on the bonus win for playing the better of a main-game hand setting - for a $15 main bet difference - as you were indeed dealt it in your seven card hand. The casino just pays it to you if they dealt it to you - as you were clearly dealt that bonus hand.
In this case, I would have played the Royal with the Royal match, not for this rule, but in case a freaking poker-blind surveillance worker was on duty, with me not worried about a $10 or $15 main bet......you know, playing a Royal Straight Flush with a KQ as its top is NOT a hand that I would EVER worry about as for the main bet result....
Not sure if it's still that way, but I think it was Harrah's in Kansas City that only paid on the way the hand was set.... This would have been several years ago, but I definitely recall it. Might have just been a bad dealer, because I was still fairly new to playing the game as well.
Quote: PlayYourCardsRightNot sure if it's still that way, but I think it was Harrah's in Kansas City that only paid on the way the hand was set.... This would have been several years ago, but I definitely recall it. Might have just been a bad dealer, because I was still fairly new to playing the game as well.
It may very well be. That would NOT be right, but maybe a house rule at some places, just to deny a huge win on a technicality.
I sometimes think about that when I get a four of a kind or better, - I always seem to check the table placards and all, - if only out of paranoia.
If so, I check my main bet versus the side bet: did I bet $100 on the main bet, and a dollar on the bonus? Did I bet $10 on the main bet AND $10 on the side?
Because of this crap, I DO stop and check....mostly long since gone, but still...
Quote: chaunceyb3Excellent, excellent questions, sodawater!
Perhaps revealing the entire photo will answer both your questions! And confirm every statement you made!
Have a look. Now, do you notice anything strange going on here?!
So sick. I knew it. AC PGP dealers miss flushes when you play straights in the back like 75 percent of the time. No way are they spotting the RM hand when it comes up once in a career.
I hope you were the one who spotted it and corrected it.
How many dealing hits and misses have you come up in your dealing career, and at what showcase casinos have you dealt at?
Have you ever dealt to a guy like yourself?
Quote: Paigowdan
It matters if it happened, and the casino sees it and pays it to you, even if you as the player missed it. You do not get paid on a bonus "*IF* you happen to see it. (Though you normally will). If matter only if you GET THAT HAND, and THAT THE CASINO PAYS YOU." You could be distracted, or even paying full attention and miss it - It is still your jackpot.
Except you can see in the full photo that the Nugget did not originally pay the unaware player for her RF+RM, but as just a RF, $750 to $5. Paying out a royal at the GNAC also requires getting confirmation from the floor, who also missed it and shorted the player $9,250 on the payout. Still waiting to hear who eventually corrected the payout.
So as you can see, as a player it DOES matter if you miss your hand because you surely cannot count on the dealers and supervisors who sleepwalk through their shifts.
Quote: PaigowdanSodawater,
How many dealing hits and misses have you come up in your dealing career, and at what showcase casinos have you dealt at?
Have you ever dealt to a guy like yourself?
Lol -- are you kidding me Dan? The next time I play a table game session where the dealer doesn't make a payout mistake, I'll have to let you know. It literally happens every single session, in every single game.
There are some very nice and personable dealers, but ALL of them make payout mistakes regularly.
I'll give you an example from a few days ago. I was watching a drunk guy bet $1,500 a hand at pai gow poker (no, not "EZ" Pai Gow, sorry) -- he was banking every other hand. Every time he won -- and I mean every single time -- the dealer had no idea how to take 5 percent of $1,500. She tried taking $125 before I corrected her. The next hand she took $50. Oh, and every time he banked, she never took his $100 Fortune bonus bet when it lost. She paid it when it won, though.
The patron was completely drunk and had no idea what was going on. But he was getting $100 freerolls on the fortune bonus every time he banked, and variable commission.
Dealers make more mistakes per hour than almost any other job I can think of.
At what showcase casino have you dealt at, putting up with a customer not unlike yourself, personality and attitude aside.
And what do you do for a living, doing everything perfectly in every detail, especially as an AP?
If dealers were perfect, all players would not be allowed to play.
Quote: PaigowdanYou didn't answer the question.
At what showcase casino have you dealt at, putting up with a customer not unlike yourself, personality and attitude aside.
And what do you do for a living, doing everything perfectly in every detail, especially as an AP?
I could never make it as a dealer -- my mistake rate would be far too low.
You were never hired (as a dealer). Talk is cheap. So I assume it wouldn't cost you much to tell us.
Tell us - what do you do as a living with such perfection?
Tell us what kind of treat of perfection you are to your clients or to your bosses.
Most people who made a fortune say that their many mistakes were exactly their path to fortune.
Quote: PaigowdanYou never made it as a dealer. I think there are many dealers who deal at, or close to, perfect automatons, especially in AC.
You were never hired (as a dealer). Talk is cheap. So I assume it wouldn't cost you much to tell us.
Tell us - what do you do as a living with such perfection?
Tell us what kind of treat of perfection you are to your clients or to your bosses.
Most people who made a fortune say that their many mistakes were exactly their path to fortune.
I am a casino game inventor. I am working on my big breakthrough game, EZ War. It really cuts down on the needless complexity of the current casino war, with at least two cards dealt every hand.
In EZ War, a single card is dealt. If it's a 9 or higher, all bets win. 8 or lower, all bets lose. The player MAY NOT BANK.
Quote: sodawaterI am a casino game inventor. I am working on my big breakthrough game, EZ War. It really cuts down on the needless complexity of the current casino war, with at least two cards dealt every hand.
In EZ War, a single card is dealt. If it's a 9 or higher, all bets win. 8 or lower, all bets lose. The player MAY NOT BANK.
Sounds awesome. Good luck to you making money on that one.
Perhaps you do not know the trick.
Quote: PaigowdanGood luck to you making money on that one.
Perhaps you do not know the trick.
Did I mention my Dragon One Card Steel Wheel Side Bet? If the ace of spades is the single card dealt, it pays 35 to 1!
See what they tell you.
As a matter of fact, present your game right here in our game inventors corner.
Let's break off a thread if you have a new game design.
See what we tell you. Let's hear the specs. Have Miplet do the math right here at this board. Sounds awesome.
Quote: sodawaterDid I mention my Dragon One Card Steel Wheel Side Bet? If the ace of spades is the single card dealt, it pays 35 to 1!
Actually, Sodawater, before you criticize a successful casino game designer on his games designs (and I now have six game types installed in casinos), - let's see if you can come up with any game at all - that has a snowball's chance of getting a field trial or install, to present to a casino for an install, no less to this forum for an evaluation.
Like I said, tell us:
1. how well you deal to perfection ("I couldn't be hired by a casino because my dealing error rate is too low"), (which is a very arrogant thing to say), and where you have dealt in order to claim this in real life, or;
2. Present a real casino game design that has a shot of a real install or field trial, and present it to the Game Inventor's Corner here at this board - a bit better than the above description, or;
3. Or tell us of any job you can do in the Gaming industry of merit.
Any one can walk into a casino and drop a chip into a circle on a casino table, and claim some street credibility at this forum.
Tell us what you do well in this business,- or as a gambler. Present us a real casino game.
Let's see your game, sodawater.
Get some installs that hit the casino floor, and get some credibility.
I seem to recall a game called "Jackpot Pai Gow Poker" where you had to set the bonus up in your five card hand. The "positive" side of this bet was that if you had a pair with your straight, flush, etc., the bonus doubled.Quote: ActuarialThat's correct most of the time. I have heard of instances (second-hand info) where the bet only pays according to the way you set your hand, so make triple sure!
A property I worked at considered this variant and even printed up rules cards for it before going with the standard Fortune Pai Gow version instead.
Quote: chaunceyb3Excellent, excellent questions, sodawater!
Perhaps revealing the entire photo will answer both your questions! And confirm every statement you made!
Have a look. Now, do you notice anything strange going on here?!
I notice that the Envy bonus pay is short $250 if it's $1000. Did you tip the dealer that much? :)
Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: chaunceyb3Excellent, excellent questions, sodawater!
Perhaps revealing the entire photo will answer both your questions! And confirm every statement you made!
Have a look. Now, do you notice anything strange going on here?!
I notice that the Envy bonus pay is short $250 if it's $1000. Did you tip the dealer that much? :)
This photo is on the winning hand itself, paying here "initially" $750 on a $5 bet, so it is paying 150:1. Most of the PGP pay tables pay 150:1 on a simple Royal; ALL pay tables pay between 1,000:1 to 2,000:1 on the Royal+RM. No envy on the winner's hand here.
Some envy tables pay a straight $500; the envy can vary on a Royal+RM from $250 to $1000, but again, this seems to be the picture of the winning hand - which does not envy itself.
As mentioned, The dealer typically pays the base royal when that is seen, then later says "Oh, (opps...) there's a royal match." The dealer shall be cursed.
If you squint to read the layout, it looks like it is a 2,000:1 on a RM payout. $10,000.
Quote: PGBusterI seem to recall a game called "Jackpot Pai Gow Poker" where you had to set the bonus up in your five card hand. The "positive" side of this bet was that if you had a pair with your straight, flush, etc., the bonus doubled.
Yup - this side bet game is real, and it DOES demand the hand-setting sacrifice changes towards the side bet, - at the expense of wrecking the main hand setting in many/some cases. Shackleford did find and describe this side bet halfway down his PGP side bet page.
It is considered a variant as a side bet because there isn't a third lower level below "premium game" and "[main game] variant" for Pai Gow Poker, so the side bets created for some games are simply lumped under "variants and/or side bets" - as there is no lower pure side bet category.
One of the reasons why this thing is a footnote is because side bets (and game variants) that diverge too strongly from, or even wreck the known play of the established game that it feeds off of, are generally rejected. The player's thinking here is "mess up the play of my known and beloved game, and I won't play the new twist on it." the extra bonus payouts did not compensate for the introduced alien-ness - of screwing up the establish game-play strategy.
Quote: PGBusterA property I worked at considered this variant and even printed up rules cards for it before going with the standard Fortune Pai Gow version instead.
Meaning, they dumped it and went back to standard Fortune Pai Gow, because the "Jackpot game" strategy change made it too non-standard. Mess with an established and successful game's strategy or procedures, to the point of non-standard-hood, and the players abandon the new "now alien" game.
Quote: sodawaterDid I mention my Dragon One Card Steel Wheel Side Bet? If the ace of spades is the single card dealt, it pays 35 to 1!
HAHAHAHA. This made me laugh.
and
Paigowdan, I've been follwing this forum for a while and it seems like half of your posts are of the holier-than-thou attitude.
Quote: beerseasonHAHAHAHA. This made me laugh.
and
Paigowdan, I've been follwing this forum for a while and it seems like half of your posts are of the holier-than-thou attitude.
Now, wasn't it Sodawater who said "I could never make it as a dealer - my error rate would be too low." This sounds pretty damn holier than thou and a "too good for you" attitude to me - if anything is of that sort. Dealers make mistakes; you point it out and it gets fixed, and you move on. I was saying that if he dealt, then he too would make mistakes like all humans.
He then starts sarcastically ragging on one of my successful commercial games - when this guy never produced jack squat in the gaming industry himself, as far as we know. Damn easy for him to criticize my game when he's produced nothing himself that I know of, and he did that only to take a shot. I would say that that shot at me by sodawater was another instance of sodawater's holier-than-thou attitude, and with zero production behind him to back anything up. Yeah, I did ask him what he himself does that so perfect, and he said nothing on this, - zero, - so I took that as an admission that he - like all - aren't perfect. True, I was putting him on the spot, but he was ragging on people when he didn't have a basis himself for it.
I would also say that if sodawater, or another member here, - anyone - produced a good game that got installs, I would salute them instead of try to belittle the game they produced.
A lot of people don't have any pride in their craft anymore. Attitude and knowledge are big parts of a dealers craft and most don't take pride while a few do. If your going to do something, might as well do it right.
Truth is, I've enjoyed the majority of the dealers that have dealt to me. Granted, I don't play every day as some of you do.
When we were there in May I sat at a Three Card Poker table in The Vegas Club. The dealer was young and absolutely adorable. But she was so new that I had to correct her pay out a few times. She dealt her first Trips bet while I was sitting at first base. She couldn't figure out how to pay the guy. I walked her through it and the PB came over and double checked to make sure she was paying it correctly. She actually thanked me. But she was so excited that she was shaking! It was funny to me. Hopefully she'll still be there next month when we go back. She was fun and had a great sense of humor. Hopefully, her mistakes haven't gotten her fired.
Quote: PaigowdanYup - this side bet game is real, and it DOES demand the hand-setting sacrifice changes towards the side bet, - at the expense of wrecking the main hand setting in many/some cases. Shackleford did find and describe this side bet halfway down his PGP side bet page.
It is considered a variant as a side bet because there isn't a third lower level below "premium game" and "[main game] variant" for Pai Gow Poker, so the side bets created for some games are simply lumped under "variants and/or side bets" - as there is no lower pure side bet category.
One of the reasons why this thing is a footnote is because side bets (and game variants) that diverge too strongly from, or even wreck the known play of the established game that it feeds off of, are generally rejected. The player's thinking here is "mess up the play of my known and beloved game, and I won't play the new twist on it." the extra bonus payouts did not compensate for the introduced alien-ness - of screwing up the establish game-play strategy.
Meaning, they dumped it and went back to standard Fortune Pai Gow, because the "Jackpot game" strategy change made it too non-standard. Mess with an established and successful game's strategy or procedures, to the point of non-standard-hood, and the players abandon the new "now alien" game.
And remarkably, the Jackpot variant has a low 2.3% house advantage. Switching to Fortune makes players happier, and adds as much as 6.2% to the house advantage.
So when did the dealer/pit/player realize it wasn't "just" a 150:1 Royal?
Quote: Deucekies[...
And remarkably, the Jackpot variant has a low 2.3% house advantage. Switching to Fortune makes players happier, and adds as much as 6.2% to the house advantage.
The wider "game design" picture in this shows that it is really about coming up with a sensible game gimmick that fits well with a game design, and where the math must not only be good, but secondary to the "fun and fit" of the entire game's concept.
