Phil Ivey "wins" 7.5 million pounds at Genting-owned Crockfords.
October 7th, 2012 at 11:53:04 PM
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Playing Punto Banco in a Mayfair casino, Phil Ivey is said to have done too well at a simple game and despite the casino having made no specific allegations they returned his initial one million pounds but will be settling the remainder of the dispute in court.
Daily Mail .
He was accompanied by an Oriental woman whose membership in a separate Mayfair casino is blocked for an unstated reason.
The casino had no objections during his two nights of play when he was down 500,000 pounds, they seem only to object to his winning.
Daily Mail .
He was accompanied by an Oriental woman whose membership in a separate Mayfair casino is blocked for an unstated reason.
The casino had no objections during his two nights of play when he was down 500,000 pounds, they seem only to object to his winning.
October 8th, 2012 at 12:02:46 AM
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October 8th, 2012 at 12:07:48 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffPlaying Punto Banco in a Mayfair casino
Another name for baccarat, btw.
Quote: articlebetting £50,000 a hand
They ought to be ashamed of themselves, if you allow that kind of betting you should be prepared to pay.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 8th, 2012 at 12:17:30 AM
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Gee, what a surprise. Once again a casino says, come,
give it your best shot. And when somebody does, the
casino refuses to pay. How exactly was he cheating at
bac? They reviewed every inch of tape and found nothing.
And they wonder why casinos are called the Dark Side..
give it your best shot. And when somebody does, the
casino refuses to pay. How exactly was he cheating at
bac? They reviewed every inch of tape and found nothing.
And they wonder why casinos are called the Dark Side..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 8th, 2012 at 12:21:46 AM
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Quote: odiousgambit
They ought to be ashamed of themselves, if you allow that kind of betting you should be prepared to pay.
And its Crockfords, ferchrisakes. The oldest and most
respected casino in England. I'm embarrassed for them.
Betting steaks in bac, at $50K a hand, he had a bit of luck.
Bac is a streaky game, they should pay up and move on.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
October 8th, 2012 at 12:23:17 AM
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October 8th, 2012 at 1:21:09 AM
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Quote: EvenBobGee, what a surprise. Once again a casino says, come,
give it your best shot. And when somebody does, the
casino refuses to pay. How exactly was he cheating at
bac? They reviewed every inch of tape and found nothing.
And they wonder why casinos are called the Dark Side..
I found the article to lack a lot of detail, there may be something to all of this, or maybe not. In any case, you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Example:
Quote: From The Article This Thread Is About
Over the years, professional gamblers who have developed some kind of system to boost their odds have been barred from casinos or had a cap imposed on the size of bets they can place. Card counting is the most common technique, where the punter keeps an eagle eye on the cards that have already been dealt and memorises them, so he knows what remains. He can then make an informed bet on what is going to be dealt next.
Emphasis mine.
Apparently, Steve Bird, the author has seen a certain movie, but lacks any true understanding of what he's talking about. Go figure.
October 8th, 2012 at 4:24:05 AM
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True. As with many journalists it seems "card counting" means memorizing each and every card played rather than merely keeping a running count of the relatively high cards and relatively low cards.Quote: MonkeyMonkeyI found the article to lack a lot of detail, there may be something to all of this, or maybe not. In any case, you can't believe everything you read on the internet.
However, poker players do keep track of all the cards played and they do it routinely so for a poker player it might be hard for him not to keep track of the cards automatically. A shoe was involved but I have no idea how many decks. Though I fail to see how this would be much help at baccarat since the sequence of the cards would have to be known to gain an advantage.
I think this will prove embarrassing for the casino but Genting can afford that.
October 8th, 2012 at 4:30:20 AM
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It is hard to make a decision with the few facts that have come out. With the recent events in AC and other cheating events by the Shang group and others, they may be on to something with the lady in question.
As for Phil Ivey, maybe he needs to money to pay back those of us he was "fightin" for that are still waiting for our Full Tilt Money. And yes, I understand you take a risk when gambling online. The Full Tilt money wont break me, but his not playing is the WSOP has seemed to have faded away with no comment.
As for Phil Ivey, maybe he needs to money to pay back those of us he was "fightin" for that are still waiting for our Full Tilt Money. And yes, I understand you take a risk when gambling online. The Full Tilt money wont break me, but his not playing is the WSOP has seemed to have faded away with no comment.
October 8th, 2012 at 4:53:08 AM
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Jeez, the casino had no qualms taking his 1M and putting it in their vaults and had no problems when he was down 1/2 million pounds. They should suspend a casino's license for something like that. They review the tapes, check the decks, and then not accuse him of wrongdoing. They are just not paying, and a casino that does not pay should not be allowed to host games.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."-Ben Franklin
October 8th, 2012 at 6:54:50 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffTrue. As with many journalists it seems "card counting" means memorizing each and every card played rather than merely keeping a running count of the relatively high cards and relatively low cards.
However, poker players do keep track of all the cards played and they do it routinely so for a poker player it might be hard for him not to keep track of the cards automatically. A shoe was involved but I have no idea how many decks. Though I fail to see how this would be much help at baccarat since the sequence of the cards would have to be known to gain an advantage.
I think this will prove embarrassing for the casino but Genting can afford that.
no offense but i think you just made the mistake that many journalists do.
poker players do not keep track of the cards played. bridge players do, but poker players don't.
October 8th, 2012 at 6:59:11 AM
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Quote: andysifno offense but i think you just made the mistake that many journalists do.
poker players do not keep track of the cards played. bridge players do, but poker players don't.
That's not necessarily true, in stud games, it's critical to know the other cards that were exposed and then folded.
October 8th, 2012 at 7:39:02 AM
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Quote: MidwestAPThat's not necessarily true, in stud games, it's critical to know the other cards that were exposed and then folded.
you are right. my wrong
October 8th, 2012 at 8:34:05 AM
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Good for Phil and bravo to the Daily Mail for covering the story. I expect the casino to pay up, including interest on the money, unless they can prove conclusively that Ivey was cheating somehow. He was up 7.3 million betting .15 million a hand most of the time. That is up 49 units, which just eyeballing it, could be ordinary good luck over seven hours of play.
Trivia Time! Name the song with this lyric. As always, NO SEARCHING!
"Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair."
Please put answers in spoiler tags.
Quote: FleaStiffPlaying Punto Banco in a Mayfair casino
Trivia Time! Name the song with this lyric. As always, NO SEARCHING!
"Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair."
Please put answers in spoiler tags.
Have a nice day.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 8th, 2012 at 8:43:25 AM
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What a murky world it is...
The article is not fully informative and it is known to contain errors and omissions.
There is a young lady involved with a bit of a murky past. Her role may be solely eye-candy, but why the murky past?
The world of SuperStars poker is always a bit murky since they are often not playing with their own money, often associated with various entities located on foreign havens and often acting as "front men" for sites with known but only grudgingly acknowledged problems regarding payments, bonuses or software-integrity.
I do look forward to receiving more information on this incident, but think better journalism will be required. If Phil Ivey makes a statement, I doubt I'll accord it much weight. Too murky you know!
The article is not fully informative and it is known to contain errors and omissions.
There is a young lady involved with a bit of a murky past. Her role may be solely eye-candy, but why the murky past?
The world of SuperStars poker is always a bit murky since they are often not playing with their own money, often associated with various entities located on foreign havens and often acting as "front men" for sites with known but only grudgingly acknowledged problems regarding payments, bonuses or software-integrity.
I do look forward to receiving more information on this incident, but think better journalism will be required. If Phil Ivey makes a statement, I doubt I'll accord it much weight. Too murky you know!
October 8th, 2012 at 8:51:27 AM
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Quote: WizardGood for Phil and bravo to the Daily Mail for covering the story. I expect the casino to pay up, including interest on the money, unless they can prove conclusively that Ivey was cheating somehow. He was up 7.3 million betting .15 million a hand most of the time. That is up 49 units, which just eyeballing it, could be ordinary good luck over seven hours of play.
Trivia Time! Name the song with this lyric. As always, NO SEARCHING!
"Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair."
Please put answers in spoiler tags.Have a nice day.
Werewolves of London by the late great Warren Zevon
Each of us is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.
Preparing for a fight about your bad decision is not as smart as making a good decision.
October 8th, 2012 at 9:08:34 AM
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Quote: sodawaterIn other news it must be fun as shit to be Phil Ivey
If there's one poker player I envy it's got to be Ivey
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
October 8th, 2012 at 9:18:20 AM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDIf there's one poker player I envy it's got to be Ivey
You must be kidding. I'd choose Phil Laak. Even on a losing night, you get to go home with Jennifer Tilley.
It don't get no better than that !
October 8th, 2012 at 9:58:30 AM
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Quote: buzzpaffQuote: TIMSPEEDIf there's one poker player I envy it's got to be Ivey
You must be kidding. I'd choose Phil Laak. Even on a losing night, you get to go home with Jennifer Tilley.
It don't get no better than that !
I'd never thought I'd see the day to say, I AGREE WITH YOU! (and Phil Laak is a helluva nice guy too)
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
October 8th, 2012 at 10:00:41 AM
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My wife actually believes I watch the movie " Let It Ride" because I love horse racing. LOL
October 8th, 2012 at 10:40:51 AM
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Quote: WizardGood for Phil and bravo to the Daily Mail for covering the story. I expect the casino to pay up, including interest on the money, unless they can prove conclusively that Ivey was cheating somehow. He was up 7.3 million betting .15 million a hand most of the time. That is up 49 units, which just eyeballing it, could be ordinary good luck over seven hours of play.
I can't believe I caught the Wizard in a math error. Article says he was betting 50 K pounds per hand. That is .05 million a hand, which is 146 units after 7 hours. This is far luckier, no?
Vote for Nobody 2020!
October 8th, 2012 at 11:39:02 AM
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Quote: bigfoot66I can't believe I caught the Wizard in a math error. Article says he was betting 50 K pounds per hand. That is .05 million a hand, which is 146 units after 7 hours. This is far luckier, no?
Quote: CardPlayer.comIvey was reportedly betting up to £150,000 a hand at Genting Crockfords London.
Link: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/14188-uk-casino-refuses-to-pay-phil-ivey-7-3m-report.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 8th, 2012 at 12:55:19 PM
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Quote: WizardTrivia Time! Name the song with this lyric. As always, NO SEARCHING!
"Lately he's been overheard in Mayfair."
Get me to the church on time
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 8th, 2012 at 12:59:31 PM
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"Werewolves in London", Warren Zevon
October 8th, 2012 at 1:30:01 PM
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Quote: vendman1"Werewolves in London", Warren Zevon
Yes, but you were supposed to put it in spoiler tags.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 8th, 2012 at 3:33:38 PM
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Just another thief Casino. It should be a criminal charge for theft.
October 8th, 2012 at 4:12:34 PM
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Said to be the oldest and most well respected casino in the UK.Quote: bigpete88Just another thief Casino. It should be a criminal charge for theft.
October 8th, 2012 at 5:46:49 PM
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FleaStiff,
All the facts are not out yet but Phil is known to be a whale and a huge bettor on the poker tables as well as craps. Positive standard deviation and a whale equals a huge loss for a Casino (whom I hate).
This Casino may have been respected. That may, or may not be, in the past tense.
That A.C. Casino that refused to pay, only offered to pay, after the Judge ordered the Casino to pay. Then, the Billionaire Casino owner wanted the Party to drop the lawsuit. They respectfully declined and I hope the A.C. Casino gets clipped like the England Casino does.
You know the rules: a bet offered and accepted is a bet unless both parties agree to cancel. That is the same as contractual law.
I take this, and the A.C. story, as a personal insult (to fairness and honesty).
My response to this will be to go full time A.P. soon and the suits can kiss my Greek/Irish ass...ha ha ha
I will take note of these Casinos that do not like to pay and I will pay special attention to them (and the Casinos that barred me in Vegas for AP). The attention will not be wanted.
All the facts are not out yet but Phil is known to be a whale and a huge bettor on the poker tables as well as craps. Positive standard deviation and a whale equals a huge loss for a Casino (whom I hate).
This Casino may have been respected. That may, or may not be, in the past tense.
That A.C. Casino that refused to pay, only offered to pay, after the Judge ordered the Casino to pay. Then, the Billionaire Casino owner wanted the Party to drop the lawsuit. They respectfully declined and I hope the A.C. Casino gets clipped like the England Casino does.
You know the rules: a bet offered and accepted is a bet unless both parties agree to cancel. That is the same as contractual law.
I take this, and the A.C. story, as a personal insult (to fairness and honesty).
My response to this will be to go full time A.P. soon and the suits can kiss my Greek/Irish ass...ha ha ha
I will take note of these Casinos that do not like to pay and I will pay special attention to them (and the Casinos that barred me in Vegas for AP). The attention will not be wanted.
October 8th, 2012 at 7:21:13 PM
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Good luck to you. I agree that it is fundamental that bets be honored. From the guy who asks for spare change until he gets his twenty dollar buy-in all the way up to the Super Whale, bets should be honored. Particularly disgraceful is the Atlantic City casino's Goon Squad Tactics against nonEnglish speaking personnel. In London, the casino has not even alleged any sort of improprieties and has admitted that neither the Whale nor his companion ever touched the cards. So its hardly even possible that there was cheating going on. The casino seems to simply think its "too lucky a player"...well, sorry but the casino is in the gambling business and has to take risks. They agreed to the size of his bets.Quote: bigpete88
My response to this will be to go full time A.P. soon ...
I agree that the industry will suffer from incidents like this and that is why sensible "suits" don't sweat the money.
October 8th, 2012 at 7:34:56 PM
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Pay da man. Mayfair scoffing... need more attention to that financial defecit syndrome? Pay da man on BBC4 Prime-time with big check and all that rubbish, like we do in the USA.
As for the TRIVIA
As for the TRIVIA
Warren Zevon... Werewolves of London. His hair was perfect.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
October 8th, 2012 at 7:53:34 PM
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"Pay da man"
That is the funniest thing that I heard all day...Thanks for the laugh :-)
That is the funniest thing that I heard all day...Thanks for the laugh :-)
October 8th, 2012 at 10:35:45 PM
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Obv should be paid, but the winnings should directly go to reducing the massive debt he caused Full Tilt, so he could more freely degen in games like this. Thank God I never won on Full Tilt and 99% of my bankroll was safe on PokerStars.
October 8th, 2012 at 11:11:41 PM
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Quote: bigpete88"Pay da man"
That is the funniest thing that I heard all day...Thanks for the laugh :-)
Almost as good as "Pay dat man heees money." -- Teddy KGB
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 9th, 2012 at 1:29:37 AM
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I can't keep straight who was front man for which poker site and which sites stole money or ran superbots as fellow players or whatever. I think the whole darn field is tarnished and if a few lucky frontmen came out looking clean it was probably only by accident or timing or something. So Full Tilt or Half Tilt ... it makes no difference.
October 9th, 2012 at 2:24:08 PM
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Strange but True??
Wizard releases his Baccarat Calculator....
Casino loses 7.5 million quid to Baccarat player...
Hmmm... Could the Wizard be the unnamed, "Mystery Acquaintance"?
Wizard releases his Baccarat Calculator....
Casino loses 7.5 million quid to Baccarat player...
Hmmm... Could the Wizard be the unnamed, "Mystery Acquaintance"?
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
October 9th, 2012 at 2:25:02 PM
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Wizard,
"Rounders" comes to mind..."Pay dat man heees money." -- Teddy KGB
"Rounders" comes to mind..."Pay dat man heees money." -- Teddy KGB
October 9th, 2012 at 2:54:05 PM
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Quote: WizardAlmost as good as "Pay dat man heees money." -- Teddy KGB
Now Crockfords should say "Hee beeeat me, straight up" -- Teddy KGB
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
October 10th, 2012 at 10:04:51 PM
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Gambling debts are collectible in British courts and it seems Phil Ivey will quite handily prevail in court as the only allegation from the casino is a vague "excessive winnings" after a multitude of cameras were viewed and all personnel were interviewed. Only the house touched the cards and while the casino has not dropped their objection to the Oriental woman they do not allege that she ever touched the cards or was banned from their casino at the time. (She was banned from a different casino associated with Crockfords).
I think Crockfords received orders from Malaya and once that happened the situation was beyond their control, no matter how embarrassing it will be for them.
I think Crockfords received orders from Malaya and once that happened the situation was beyond their control, no matter how embarrassing it will be for them.
October 11th, 2012 at 3:46:58 AM
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My favorite part of the article:
Someone screwed that one up...
Quote:When Don Johnson, for example, a 49-year-old American professional gambler, arrives at a casino, he strikes fear into the management. He is already barred from two Las Vegas casinos — and in 2010 won more than £4 million from two Atlantic City casinos playing blackjack. Last year, a 12-hour session at another saw him walk away with more than £3 million. (The boss was promptly sacked.)
While no one knows what system he uses, he puts his success down to having the cash to keep going when he has suffered setbacks.
‘You also have to understand the maths,’ Mr Johnson has said. ‘I’m not breaking any laws. I’m beating them with my own skills.’
Someone screwed that one up...
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
October 11th, 2012 at 5:04:05 AM
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The casinos in AC had made deals with the super whale that were deep cuts into their house edge and he just kept playing until things were heavy in his direction..... then he simply "abruptly got off the see-saw leaving the other kid to take a fall".
The only agreement with Phil Ivey was that he would play a substantial amount of time rather than hit and run after a few hands. He played for two nights.
Its the huge bankroll that lets them go up against the casino. Most players can have a run of bad luck and get wiped out by Gamblers Ruin but these whales just sit there through thick and thin and keep on going until they are riding the crest of the wave and then ... they take their marbles and go home.
I'm sure someone at Crockfords was extremely happy when Phil Ivey was down half a million pounds that first night. They hoped he would continue to lose the next night... and for a while, he did continue to lose. Then he hit a streak ... and left being owed a bundle.
The only agreement with Phil Ivey was that he would play a substantial amount of time rather than hit and run after a few hands. He played for two nights.
Its the huge bankroll that lets them go up against the casino. Most players can have a run of bad luck and get wiped out by Gamblers Ruin but these whales just sit there through thick and thin and keep on going until they are riding the crest of the wave and then ... they take their marbles and go home.
I'm sure someone at Crockfords was extremely happy when Phil Ivey was down half a million pounds that first night. They hoped he would continue to lose the next night... and for a while, he did continue to lose. Then he hit a streak ... and left being owed a bundle.
October 11th, 2012 at 12:25:36 PM
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I wonder if the female with Phil Ivey was using any card sequencing?
Other news venues are picking up on this story.
Other news venues are picking up on this story.
October 11th, 2012 at 1:08:15 PM
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Crockfords should be ashamed of themselves. All the big whales -should- immediately stop playing there (and there are several who do) until this is resolved.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
October 11th, 2012 at 1:29:54 PM
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If they have a gaming Commission across the pond, the Commission should levy a huge fine.
NFL bounty fine.
NFL coach grabbing refs arm fine.
Ivey should hire a PR firm and blast the message. A lot of people are already really pissed.
NFL bounty fine.
NFL coach grabbing refs arm fine.
Ivey should hire a PR firm and blast the message. A lot of people are already really pissed.
October 12th, 2012 at 3:27:40 AM
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Quote: bigpete88Other news venues are picking up on this story.
Do you have links to more in-depth versions of the story?
October 12th, 2012 at 4:26:34 AM
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Most of what Google labels "in depth" is just the original press release and nothing else.Quote: MonkeyMonkeyDo you have links to more in-depth versions of the story?
Genting is not answering questions and neither is Crockfords.
With fourteen cameras in the Salon Privee what is Crockfords going to allege: he never touched the cards, his Bimbo never touched the cards, only the woman employee we've had for years touched the cards but somehow we want to avoid paying out his winnings.
October 12th, 2012 at 5:48:47 PM
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Unlikely. Big Table baccarat is rarely trackable in any way. Mini baccarat is another story,
but even there the information is much less powerful than in most other card games, and
even amongst professionals very few know how to do it properly at bac.
If it was AP, my guess would be that there was some vulnerability in the shuffle procedure
which allowed the players to physically see the cards during the process. There's a trade-off
between the complexity of a shuffle, which prevents mathematical modeling of the shuffle
as with sequencing, and physical card exposure.
but even there the information is much less powerful than in most other card games, and
even amongst professionals very few know how to do it properly at bac.
If it was AP, my guess would be that there was some vulnerability in the shuffle procedure
which allowed the players to physically see the cards during the process. There's a trade-off
between the complexity of a shuffle, which prevents mathematical modeling of the shuffle
as with sequencing, and physical card exposure.
October 13th, 2012 at 3:27:51 AM
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Quote: GBVIf it was AP
At this point I am assuming they know he did not cheat.
I'm starting to think that loss rebates are involved.
You can't be in that business and not know that the proper response to a Whale's big win is to increase the comps: the best suite, booze, nose candy maybe, etc., and, they tell me, the whale's sex life will be assured to be good too. The whale won big? Then make sure he stays and loses it back. Casino ops 101.
Unless.
Unless he made too good a deal with his loss rebates.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 13th, 2012 at 3:47:44 AM
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No rooms at all much less suites. No comps or gratuities. ONLY a waitress can accept a gratuity in Crockfords, no dealers and no players.
October 13th, 2012 at 4:01:26 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffNo rooms at all much less suites. No comps or gratuities. ONLY a waitress can accept a gratuity in Crockfords, no dealers and no players.
Didn't know that, have to ponder it.
Secret rebates?
Suckers corrupt, Whales corrupt absolutely?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
October 13th, 2012 at 4:11:38 AM
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That's not quite true. I've been offered things like gourmet meals. Offering prostitutes isn't legal (probably, prostitution isn't actually illegal in the UK but living off immoral earnings is), but it goes on. There's other stuff I can't talk about here, suffice to say you can bend the rules if not actually break them. For example, a player might be offered generous terms on settling commissions if not actual loss rebates in the formal sense. Say a player "has trouble" settling a commission. That's a legally enforceable gambling debt, but if the casino chooses not to enforce it, then who knows or cares since both parties benefit?
An agent who acquires a player might be playing by different rules with his own cut, finder fees can be split with the player. There's always a way no matter what the law is.
An agent who acquires a player might be playing by different rules with his own cut, finder fees can be split with the player. There's always a way no matter what the law is.
