Riva1
Riva1
Joined: Jan 14, 2020
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December 14th, 2021 at 2:09:48 PM permalink
Hello all. Some of you may recall I used to come to this website for your expert advice to help us maximize profits surrounding a charitable gaming conducted by an organization I am affiliated with. I am a non-paid volunteer at a 4-days-per-year festival that offers real-money gaming as one of its attractions. The festival attracts about 200,000 people over the long weekend. Our games include craps (2, 14'), roulette (2,20'), 25 black-jack, 10 poker, 4 big wheels, 3 let-it ride. Wagers are limited mostly to $5 - $10. kind of thing. Plus, we charge $5 to enter the tent, and we sell a ton of beer and pizza.

Since I have worked this event (20 years), state regulations have limited us to sell only $15,000 to players per day. On a typical evening, we have about 200 people in line to enter the tent. As a result, we limit gaming chip purchases to $50 to get as many people in the tent as possible. That said, once we hit the $15,000, we can't sell any more chips to players. It's maddening, because we have only 8 hours per day, 4 days per year to literally print money. No chips = no cover charge, fewer beer and pizza sales and less revenue from gaming.

For more years than I like to remember, I have lobbied legislators at the state capital to increase the amount of chips we can sell to players. About 2 years ago, we finally got the state to agree to a $5,000 increase, or $20,000 per day. Not a big deal, all things considered. However, the new law had a provision written it that if the charity meets certain criteria, the charity can sell up $80,000 divided by the number of days of your day, with a 3-day limit. So, if we reduce our charitable gaming from 4 days to 3 days, we could sell $26,000 per day. If it was a 2-day event, we could sell $40,000 per day. Finally, if it was a 1 day event, we could actually sell $80,000 for that one day.

Still with me?

Any qualified non-profit or charitable organization in the state can conduct an event of four events per year. Each event can be anywhere from 1-4 days. If the organization does not conduct 4 events, so be it. In our case, we have only one event per year that takes place over 4 consecutive days. So, we only have to purchase 1 license, and that's that!

Then, I had an epiphany. I said to myself, "why wouldn't we simply purchase four,1-day licenses to conduct the four licenses over four consecutive days that correspond with the same days surrounding the festival?". In that manner, we could sell $80,000 in chips per day, each under its own, unique license.

I immediately reached out to the state agency that regulates charitable gaming. Their response was that since we conduct a 4-day festival, the same charitable gaming license is all we are entitled to. My response to the person was to ask, "What if we had no festival, and I simply wanted to have four, 1-day gaming events that happen to take place over four consecutive days?" zzzzzzzzz. The person had absolutely no answer.

I finally presented my argument to the most senior managers of the agency that controls charitable gaming in the state. Shortly afterwards, they sent me a memo that stated that if we wanted to purchase four, 1-day licenses that can occur on any day of the year, concurrent or otherwise, the department finds no conflict within the current regulations.

Praise the Lord! We can now sell $80,000 in gaming chips per day! To state it otherwise, we've gone from selling $60,000 in chips over a 4-day weekend to a whopping $320,000.

Here's my question to this forum...

My thinking is that with this new selling limit, we simply need to get more players into the tent to gamble and buy pizza & beer. I am reluctant to substantially increase wager amounts, and keep payouts the same (about a 30% shave on craps and roulette). Plus, retain "dealer takes ties" on black jack. My thinking is that we will need a bigger tent, with more tables and more dealers and supervisors.

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks.

Riva
Dieter
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Dieter
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December 14th, 2021 at 2:54:43 PM permalink
Nice to hear that your organization's event is still going strong, and congratulations on adding 3 more events per year.

If you can't add tables, you can't add players. I'm only seeing capacity for around 350 players at a time with your current table count, half that if social distancing mandates are in effect.

You can definitely allow rebuys of chips.
You can probably increase the table limits to $20.
I'd suggest not raising the limits on all the tables; some of your exclusive clientele are probably comforted by a $10 max bet.
I'd suggest adding another roulette table and another 10 blackjack tables. (If I remember... double layout, 3 croupier roulette?)
You know where things get crowded.

I expect that the license has to be posted at the cashier or the door. I'd double check that the correct license for the correct day is posted, and that you have a printed copy of the opinion memo saying "4x1 day events is ok!" on hand in case some enforcement agent comes around to check things out.

Best of luck!
May the cards fall in your favor.
Riva1
Riva1
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December 14th, 2021 at 4:36:20 PM permalink
Thank you for the kind words.

To make a good thing even better, a senator recently submitted a bill that would allow a qualified organization to sell $125,000 gaming chips per day. That would give us the opportunity to sell $500,000. in gaming chips over our 4-day festival. That's a $440,000. bump! As I said, we're going to need a bigger tent, with more tables and with more dealers and supervisors. Plus, more pizza and beer kegs!

We can, as you say, definitely allow for more chip rebuys. (We need to buy a ton more professional chips).

- I am comfortable with increasing blackjack table count to 40 tables. How's this...20 tables at $5/10? 15 tables at $10 / $20. 5 tables at $20. (No more of this $1.00/ $2.00 wager noise.)

- "Big Wheel" wagers: I am happy with keeping wagers to $5.00 max. The H/E is already at 35%. Why expose ourselves to an exposure that pays 40 to 1, times the number of impulsive wagers?

- "Roulette". As shared, we have two, 20' tables. We can put about 18-20 players at each table. Each 20' roulette table requires 3 dealers. Other than the "outset bets", we have shaved 33% of all inside bets. Players don't mind, they're happy if/when they win (anything) . We do have a 9' roulette table donated to us by a local casino, which we will now out in play. All roulette tables have casino-quality, 32" wheels.

Your advice regarding posting proper licensing documents is 100% spot on.

We also have one proviso that protects the house in case 1 or 2 players cream us on a given night. Every 10' around the tent is signage stating that "Maiximum winnings = $500". Most savvy players know how to get around his by simply handing their winnings chips over to a colleague at the check-out table and getting their winnings outside the tent. We don' because the numbers/net do not change that much in either direction.
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Dieter
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Dieter
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December 14th, 2021 at 5:02:13 PM permalink
Quote: Riva1

I am comfortable with increasing blackjack table count to 40 tables. How's this...20 tables at $5/10? 15 tables at $10 / $20. 5 tables at $20. (No more of this $1.00/ $2.00 wager noise.)
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You know your clientele.
My read is that these are not sophisticated gamblers, or they wouldn't accept the $500 maximum payout and the 30% house edge, plus a cover charge to get in the door.
I think a lot of them may feel like you're doing a cash grab, and they may feel alienated if the table minimum is suddenly $5 where they used to play happily for $2 and wanted to play more at $2, you just couldn't sell more chips.

Let the players donate to your charity on their terms.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Riva1
Riva1
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December 14th, 2021 at 8:57:02 PM permalink
good, solid advice.

Thanks
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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December 15th, 2021 at 6:22:39 AM permalink
Welcome back!

I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that the regulators are allowing that loophole to work. I'd be surprised if that part of the event goes smoothly.

That said, all I can offer is the obvious that may have been overlooked.

In addition to the additional staffing, more pizza and beer means more trash and more restrooms. More people means more cars. Probably dozens of other things to consider.

I'm sure you'll have financial success. But you're essentially gearing up for five times the dollar volume with an unknown amount of additional customers. Many things can go wrong. I hope none do, but I also hope you're fully prepared for it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Riva1
Riva1
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December 15th, 2021 at 8:32:18 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Welcome back!

I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that the regulators are allowing that loophole to work. I'd be surprised if that part of the event goes smoothly.

That said, all I can offer is the obvious that may have been overlooked.

In addition to the additional staffing, more pizza and beer means more trash and more restrooms. More people means more cars. Probably dozens of other things to consider.

I'm sure you'll have financial success. But you're essentially gearing up for five times the dollar volume with an unknown amount of additional customers. Many things can go wrong. I hope none do, but I also hope you're fully prepared for it.
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All valid points to keep in mind.

The festival does not take place until the last week of May. I have already alerted the powers to be of the situation, and we plan to meet in January to map this entire thing out to the "t".

Parking-- we sit on a 130 campus, entirely flat, with more than enough vacant land to park a vehicle. Students manage the coordination of parking (with several adult supervisors).

Trash-- we hire a company to collect trash in every venue. However, we will alert them that we will have larger crowds in the gambling tent. Surprisingly, there is not much trash in the tent. Mostly beer cups and pizza plates.

People--parents must work 20 hours per year or their kid's tuition goes up big time. Most simply allocate 2 days of the 4-day weekend to work the festival in some capacity. If we need more people to work the tent, we simply assign them to the tent versus some other soft duty elsewhere on campus. Some grumble. Most don't.

Dealers--we start training dealers early in the year and ramp up a few weeks before the event. All our gaming tables are set up a week before the festival, so hands-on training works perfectly. We have capable trainers for each type of game. Craps and roulette are the most challenging. A few years ago, I put a fellow to work as a boxman because things were going crazy on the table. He asked me what he was supposed to do, and I replied, "just sit there and don't smile."

As far as regulators and loopholes, etc...This was run by the attorney general of the state, who agreed that what we will do is 100% legal. With that said, there are LOT of moving parts to this thing. For the first year, I see us going slow and taking copious notes. As they say, "Plan, Do, Study, Act."
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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December 15th, 2021 at 11:12:37 AM permalink
Quote: Riva1

A few years ago, I put a fellow to work as a boxman because things were going crazy on the table. He asked me what he was supposed to do, and I replied, "just sit there and don't smile."
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LOL. Yeah, you do know this business.
Of course, I知 now curious about the type of crazy that was going on.

Also, I noticed you didn稚 mention one item that I mentioned. Restrooms. After all, all that additional beer has to go somewhere. 🤪
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Riva1
Riva1
Joined: Jan 14, 2020
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December 15th, 2021 at 11:57:32 AM permalink
The crazy stuff is mostly players tossing money (chips) onto the layout for their next bet, even before we had dragged the winnings in.

As for restrooms, remember that 50,000 people attend the festival each day. There are literally 200+ portajohns located everywhere throughour the festival. While we have 6 inside the tent, players are reluctant to leave their seat for fear of losing their spot. Some tensions have occurred when a player tries to regain their spot, mostly at blackjack. BTW--we give our free popcorn to any/all, so I guess we're part of the problem

We open for business at 5:00pm. The line to get in the tent starts about 4:00. By 7:00, every spot in the room is taken, and people lurk behind active players to get into a game--any game. By 7:30, we have sold through the $15k per-day chip limit.
Riva1
Riva1
Joined: Jan 14, 2020
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December 15th, 2021 at 11:58:34 AM permalink
The crazy stuff is mostly players tossing money (chips) onto the layout for their next bet, even before we had dragged the winnings in.

As for restrooms, remember that 50,000 people attend the festival each day. There are literally 200+ portajohns located everywhere throughour the festival. While we have 6 inside the tent, players are reluctant to leave their seat for fear of losing their spot. Some tensions have occurred when a player tries to regain their spot, mostly at blackjack. BTW--we give our free popcorn to any/all, so I guess we're part of the problem

We open for business at 5:00pm. The line to get in the tent starts about 4:00. By 7:00, every spot in the room is taken, and people lurk behind active players to get into a game--any game. By 7:30, we have sold through the $15k per-day chip limit.

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