tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
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August 16th, 2015 at 11:08:08 PM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

Yes, but you are omitting one salient point. Phil Ivey ask that certain cards be rotated in order to gain knowledge of their value. This is a manipulation of the game even though the casino agreed to the request. Whether this amounts to cheating or not is the real issue.



Under New Jersey law, I believe it does.

http://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-5/section-5-12-113

And when you Google the definition of "trick" you get this from Google:

a cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.

Ivey and his partner are clearly guilty of that, imo. The only thing that may save him is that Borgata apparently destroyed the cards in question because they are clearly idiots as well.
Greasyjohn
Greasyjohn
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August 16th, 2015 at 11:20:01 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

Under New Jersey law, I believe it does.

http://law.justia.com/codes/new-jersey/2013/title-5/section-5-12-113

And when you Google the definition of "trick" you get this from Google:

a cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.

Ivey and his partner are clearly guilty of that, imo. The only thing that may save him is that Borgata apparently destroyed the cards in question because they are clearly idiots as well.



I'm not sure destroying the cards would make any difference if Borgata acknowledges that the cards were readable through edge sorting, seeing how Phil Ivey has already admitted this. Espically if destroying and only if destroying the cards is normal procedure.
speedycrap
speedycrap
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August 17th, 2015 at 4:14:33 AM permalink
Quote: Greasyjohn

Yes, but you are omitting one salient point. Phil Ivey ask that certain cards be rotated in order to gain knowledge of their value. This is a manipulation of the game even though the casino agreed to the request. Whether this amounts to cheating or not is the real issue.

I doubt so. Say, I ask the casino to flip over the dealer hole card before I hit/no hit my hand of black jack. And casino agrees. Then I hit/on hit and win. Do you call that cheating??? Casino knows about the risk of NOT following procedure. Anything out of ordinary is suspicious to the casino. That is why casino has risk control and procedure. This experience cost the casino over 10 million dollars.
RS
RS
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August 17th, 2015 at 4:22:17 AM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

I doubt so. Say, I ask the casino to flip over the dealer hole card before I hit/no hit my hand of black jack. And casino agrees. Then I hit/on hit and win. Do you call that cheating??? Casino knows about the risk of NOT following procedure. Anything out of ordinary is suspicious to the casino. That is why casino has risk control and procedure. This experience cost the casino over 10 million dollars.



I'm sure an AP-hater would respond to your post and say "But flipping over the dealer's card is obvious...and Ivey tricked the casino into using those cards / using ASM / turning cards / etc.!"

But......it doesn't matter if it was obvious or a trick. The casino went ahead and willingly/willfully agreed to Ivey's requests.

The only thing that it comes down to is this: Did Ivey break the law? If not, he should be given the $9.6M or however much it is. If he did break the law, he should go to jail.
darkoz
darkoz
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August 17th, 2015 at 4:49:14 AM permalink
To straighten out the confusion,

Ivey was denied payment by Crockfords and sued them for the money -- he lost but its on appeal.

Ivey was PAID by Borgata and is being sued by Borgata for its return. He is counter-suing them as part of his defense strategy.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
darkoz
darkoz
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August 17th, 2015 at 4:57:10 AM permalink
Here is another article with some clarification.

http://www.pokerupdate.com/news/law-and-legislation/08173-borgata-admits-destroying-playing-cards-in-phil-ivey-case/

It should be pointed out and is important to the case, that the special requests for turning cards and using specific brands and automatic shufflers are ROUTINELY granted to high rollers according to this article and others I have read.

If that is the case, then the requests granted are normal operating procedure for that type of level of player and any information gleaned from it cannot be considered cheating without claiming that all high rollers who request cards be turned a certain way or certain packs be used or automatic shufflers (due to superstition or not) are cheating.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
NokTang
NokTang
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August 17th, 2015 at 5:02:57 PM permalink
It seems like the boxes are opened, and simply but in the continuous shuffle machine without any manual shuffling. Therefore all of the cards would have the same edge downwards. Then, as the game progresses, Mr. Ivey and his Chinese friend would ask that the high value cards(8's and 9's I've read) be turned a half turn, making their edge distinctive from the remaining in the machine. As time goes on, more and more of said turned cards are in the machine and at some point, they/he would see the next card coming to the player was an 8 or 9 and bet big on the player at that point. How this act was not obvious to high limit casino's is beyond me. They, having said high limits, one would assume also have high paid experts watching the games both at the table and above.
speedycrap
speedycrap
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August 17th, 2015 at 5:16:43 PM permalink
Quote: NokTang

It seems like the boxes are opened, and simply but in the continuous shuffle machine without any manual shuffling. Therefore all of the cards would have the same edge downwards. Then, as the game progresses, Mr. Ivey and his Chinese friend would ask that the high value cards(8's and 9's I've read) be turned a half turn, making their edge distinctive from the remaining in the machine. As time goes on, more and more of said turned cards are in the machine and at some point, they/he would see the next card coming to the player was an 8 or 9 and bet big on the player at that point. How this act was not obvious to high limit casino's is beyond me. They, having said high limits, one would assume also have high paid experts watching the games both at the table and above.

Exactly. The casino knowingly change or bend procedure to accommodate high limit players without doing any homework. Resulting 10 millions lost. Who can they blame except themselves. Cheating... I dont think so. Stupidity.... Yes with a capital Y.
ZenMasterFlash
ZenMasterFlash
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August 23rd, 2015 at 3:58:35 PM permalink
In order for Ivey to know that the next card out of the shoe was an 8 or a 9, REQUIRED more than edge-sorting the cards. Anyone who has played the game needs to pause a moment and visualize the game. Nobody can see the first card (always a Player Card) that starts off each hand - BECAUSE the dealer is taught NOT to pull that card partially out of the shoe ~ BEFORE all player's bets are "set". Ivey's playing with a Chinese partner, and insisting on a Mandarin-speaking dealer, should have been a BIG "red-flag." The floor-person(s) supervising the game were CLEARLY negligent ~ or ~ in collusion with Team Ivey. There are no other possible conclusions to be drawn. It amazes me that this little fact has never been mentioned. The dealer HAD TO KNOW that she was in collusion, and that without her direct involvement, Ivey could not have won !
Long Ago I Learned that All of Life is 6 to 5 Against"
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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August 23rd, 2015 at 4:12:33 PM permalink
You'd also have to be able to handle the cards, or as in Ivey's case the dealer AND have the cards reused. Never seen this situation where players handle the cards and are reused.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!

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