BillyT
Posted by BillyT
Jun 21, 2015

Electronic Craps (Shufflemaster's Vegas Star) with Settable Electronic Dice, in NY State Casinos

Soon I will be commenting on this electronic craps game. This is not bubble craps. I have been playing the Vegas Star game for about 2 years now, and there are a number of interesting features and info to be discussed. One main concern is how not to seven out within 2 to 5 rolls, which happens all too frequently.
I encourage others to join the discussion. More about this electronic game soon to follow.

Comments

100xOdds
100xOdds Jun 21, 2015

Vegas Star? surprised it's still around.

I thought people preferred e-Craps with real dice instead of the dumb gimmick of setting electronic dice and 'rolling' it on your screen.



Aquaduct racino in queens, ny has both Vegas Star and Organic Craps.



When I was there a few yrs ago, Organic Craps had better odds (3/4/5x) and the Field paid Triple on 12 vs the 2x odds and Double on the 12 for Vegas Star.

BillyT
BillyT Jun 22, 2015

Thanks for the reply. Yes, all the state casinos have the Vegas Star, and surprisingly there is quite a following of players. The casinos are: Resort World/Aqueduct Racetrack in Queens County, Empire City/Racetrack in Yonkers, NY (Weschester County), Monticello Casino & Raceway in Monticello, NY, upstate in the Catskill mountain region, and Saratoga Casino & Raceway, Saratoga Springs, NY, upstate in the Adirondack mountain region. More to follow.

odiousgambit
odiousgambit Jun 22, 2015

>the dumb gimmick of setting electronic dice and 'rolling' it on your screen



truly, verily I say unto you, that is the ultimate in believing in dice control



this is the Vegas Star 'thing' ?

BillyT
BillyT Jun 22, 2015

By the way, addressing the Organic craps, I had tried it around 1 1/2 years ago and I didn't feel comfortable with it, even though the dice are "real" and that the odds and field bet 12 (3X payoff) are better. Besides, I seem to remember the minimum pass line bet is $15 (I also play the "don't side" as well when I think the "table" conditions are right), and I usually only play $5 or $10 tables. Also, the don't side usually does not play out well, because the game seems to follow your moves at times. Because you can set the Vegas Star "dice", I have done better than the seemingly random bouncing of the dice in the dome of the Organic craps. I am a self taught dice setter/controller and I need much more practice. Of course, there is nothing like the real live crap table, which are currently not authorized in NY state casinos. More to follow.

teddys
teddys Jun 22, 2015

Yes, I agree with OG. I am very interested to hear your thoughts on this game.

BillyT
BillyT Jun 22, 2015

OK guys (and gals, if present), here we go with some useful info on the subject of the Vegas Star electronic craps only. But first, to clear the air about dice setting and control, that is a matter of personal choice. I would rather take an orderly approach in rolling the dice, even if sometimes the roll turned out to be mostly random, or that dice control only accounted for 10% of winning rolls. I've tried random shooting at the real crap table and found that my throws produced scattered dice, bouncing around the table or going in rather wild directions. Also, I've trained sufficiently so that I don't take longer than 5 to 7 seconds to set and shoot the dice at a live table. Now, I'm going to say that I've only played a real table about 8 times between Atlantic City and Las Vegas. I live on Long Island in Massapequa, NY and the closest casinos are Resort World and Empire City, and they only have the electronic craps. I've seen many times players coming from the Organic craps machine to try their hand at the Vegas Star machine. Many players "set" the dice, and there are definite techniques that are used to throw the dice. You have 10 t!imed seconds in which to throw the dice, otherwise the machine automatically throws them for you. There is a 50 inch color screen in front of 4 to 8 player terminals which displays an actual crap table image whose far end turns toward you when someone shoots the dice. The players terminals display a color craps betting layout in green and red, and displays the point. More to follow soon.

BillyT
BillyT Jun 23, 2015

Continuing on, each player's terminal has all craps bets available that exist on the actual table. For "buy" and "lay" bets, it appears that half the 5% commission is taken from the player's bankroll when making the bet, and the other half is taken upon winning the bet. There is no on-screen documentation that describes the commission action, although there is a bet and odds table, payout table and a brief craps tutorial in the on-screen sub menu. There are on-screen buttons available at the bottom of the display, such as Collect, All Bets Off, Clear all bets (except the passline) and an Undo/Redo button to accommodate unwanted or re-establishing your last bet(s). There are square hardware buttons also: Collect, Reserve, Service and Throw Dice. Note that you have the choice of setting and throwing the dice yourself with your first and second fingers, or simply setting the dice and hitting (with moderate force) or by pressing the Throw button gently. Note also that setting the dice is optional, you don't have to. But I would put every possible advantage in my corner for a win, by doing so. I took a photo with my cell phone of the message box that comes up when the dice are ready to throw. It's good that I did take the picture because it only lasts 10 seconds. And here is what it says and shows: Lob the dice with a single loop around motion, and can be either left or right. Now, here's what the diagram shows, which may be important in preventing an early seven out: the end of the illustrated loop shows a right angle launch, indicating that the throw should be angled as sharply as possible toward the sides of the crap table image. At least toward the mixing bowl (curved) area. I have been told by players a few times that if you roll straight down the center of the crap table, an early seven out is likely. Another way the illustration shows is by rolling the dice without a loop, either straight forward toward the far end of the table, or by rolling in a straight line at a 30 to 40 degree angle. I believe these straight rolls (especially the straight ahead one) should only be done if the dice are set, but will still result in a rather early seven out. Of course, there may be many times that an early seven out occurs, no matter what you do. One of my main reasons for creating this blog is to reach out and maybe hear other players methods to avoid an early seven out. More to follow.

BillyT
BillyT Jun 24, 2015

OK now, we are nearing the end of my blog series. About the only item that remains to talk about is the information contained on the Vegas Star 50 inch screen. Well, we have the crap table image which will display all players bets, but not how much is bet. In other words, players can see chips placed on pass line bets, come bets, don't come, don't pass, field bets, place bets, buy bets, lay bets and all proposition bets, but one cannot see exactly how much is bet per player. At the very bottom of the screen is a line type area which displays ( I think) the last 20 roll values. Now that is useful to estimate and get a feel for very, very short term trends for crap and field bet numbers, observing if the box number pairs are showing (such as 4 & 10, 5 & 9, and 6 & 8) often and repeating dice numbers of any value, 2 through 12. Then, at the lower right side of the screen are the current total number of rolls for the player's hand and craps & eleven for the hand, and total number of Hardways. To the right of that is the latest "Record" values of the most rolls thrown, such as 42 or 54 (those are considered monster hands. Any number of rolls 30 or above. Below that is the same Hardways total and below that is the total number of craps & eleven (Yo!) rolls. I find the most meaningful data is the string of numbers thrown, and perhaps if you favor playing it, the Hardways. To me, the total number of craps & eleven does not hold meaning, but rather you should look at the rolls value line (string) to note those brief trends. Also, your player's chips are located on each individual terminal at the upper right. You can either drags the chips to your bets with your finger, or tap the chip value and then tap your bet area. Another thing to note is your bankroll area, located at the upper left, and your current total bet area, located at the top middle. This "Bet" area (or window) is important if you desire to place odds at the passline (for instance) that is less than the minimum table bet. So for example, you wish to place $5 odds on a $10 pass line bet, with $10 being the minimum table bet. you now must either place lets say a $10 field bet, or drag another bet off the terminal so that when you put it back the total bet is now at least $10 (with the $5 odds included). That's important when you expect bets to remain up on the layout when your total bet would otherwise be less than $10. My last blog will describe the story behind a revision of the software which all the NY state casinos implemented during 2014. Believe me, this revision was not good news for the regular Vegas Star Players. More to follow...

BillyT
BillyT Jul 01, 2015

I'm back again, after a several day absence. OK, now for the reason of the NY State software revision of the Vegas Star craps during 2014. For a least a year before (2013 and maybe earlier), there were players who knew of a software flaw in the game that produced constant big wins. The players would bet $100 on the flawed winning bet over and over again, and produced thousands of big wins that totaled into the hundreds of thousands of dollars over time. I don't recall what type of bet it was. A Google search might produce something on that. The NY State Gaming Commission was going to attempt to try to catch these players, because they had large taxable winnings. I don't know if they were successful. The end result I knew about was that suddenly during the late spring and summer of 2014, there were no more Vegas Star craps to be played. Not knowing why at the time, I had inquired at the main Cashiers cage and was only told that craps was no longer available. I also did not know about the Interblock Organic craps either, but I don't think that was closed down. And just as suddenly, months later the Vegas Star craps was available to play again. But this time, the game was not as friendly in producing consistent wins and that consistent winning flaw was fixed (I did not know about the winning flaw, being relatively new to the game at the time). It was much tighter, no matter what NY state casino you played at. It has been the same ever since, with many early seven outs. Next, I am going to cover more tips and techniques on how to win more often with this tighter new software . I also encourage others to add any advice and tips that may help in producing wins and other info, and reducing the chance of an early seven out. More to follow...

BillyT
BillyT Jul 01, 2015

OK, here are more tips. Be aware that you cannot use backspin when shooting the virtual dice as far as I know. Controlled shooters, also known as DI (Dice Influence) know about applying backspin on real dice during a toss. When shooting straight forward (no lobbing loop), try to keep the dice from tumbling, called "pitch" in aviation terms. In actual dice control on a real table, one is concerned about "pitch" and "roll" (aviation terms) only. Yaw (another term) is not important, because all that is is a horizontal spin of the dice. So, for example if a 5 and 4 (a 9) show on the top off the dice, it would not change with Yaw, because the dice are only spinning horizontally. Roll, on the other hand is important, because that influences the number on the sides of the dice, which could appear on top when the dice come to rest. It is due to the dice bouncing on the table. So, for example if you set a 6 on the left axis and a 1 on the right axis, the dice are tossed, then come to rest. Now you would see the 6 and 1 on top (a 7) which is fine on the come out roll, but not good after the come out. Next tip: We know that you are not supposed to aim at anything but the flat portion of the far end wall on the actual table, avoiding the curved ends known as the "mixing bowl". But as I had mentioned in an earlier blog, for the Vegas Star you want to throw the virtual dice off center, preferably in the mixing bowl. This is supposed to reduce the chance of an early seven out. If anyone knows another way of avoiding an early seven, please let us know. I noticed that the Vegas Star table appears bouncy at times, causing "roll" of the dice. The table conditions do appear to change, probably due to the programming. I saw a faulty game re-load the software in the Monticello "racino" (racetrack and casino), and I saw a number of table parameters loading. It was rather quick, but I saw that the table material and other parameters could be selected and loaded. Rolling and tumbling for the most part cannot really be consistently controlled by the shooter, even if you gently launch the dice. The force that propels your throw forward can be definitely not proportional with a gentle toss. Try to launch the dice from below the curved "throw line" which appears for 10 seconds during your throw. That way you can more often control the direction of the dice, off center. You actually have to "break the dice free" from their initial location by using your 1st and 2nd finger. Now you can move the dice where you want them. As said before, you can also press the "Throw" button or wait for an automatic throw after 10 seconds and not use your fingers. You can set the dice at the beginning of the 10 second interval or not set them at all, if desired. Another feature which really should be always functioning, is the Stickman's voice. On some machines the volume is set very low or not heard at all. I was told in Monticello by a floor supervisor that the volume is controlled by a remote, just like on any modern TV. Another feature about the Vegas Star is that you cannot bet the Pass Line and Don't Pass at the same time. As far as I know, you can bet these simultaneously on an actual table. The only way I know around that is to play 2 terminals simultaneously, one betting the Pass and the other Don't Pass. Betting on 2 machines at the same time is a technique typically used by slot players. More to follow..

BillyT
BillyT Jul 01, 2015

Continuing on to finalize, I have found that generally more wins are produced if you only have $60 to $80 in the terminal. I have also concluded that the "Iron Cross" strategy is probably the best one to use on the Vegas Star, because you want to capture as many winning bets as possible before the seven out. I know there are many better strategies, but this is an electronic game. The Iron Cross consists of betting $5 on the Field bet, and place betting $10 on the 5, and $12 each on the 6 and 8 box numbers. A Pass or Don't Pass bet (with optional odds) is optional. it is not required, it is only bet if you want to throw the dice. You can also start the Iron Cross betting (after the come out roll) with $5 on the 5 and $6 each on the 6 and 8. I would not set up the Iron Cross on the second roll after the come out. This is to avoid losses on a "Point - 7" outcome. Sometimes you may wish to wait until the 3rd roll after the come out, avoiding the "Point, number, 7" outcome. That is about the best one can do for avoiding early losses. You must risk the bets from then on, and assume that the 7 out will occur 12 rolls or later. I know that this does not always happen. Now, to give a couple of examples of how dice setting on the Vegas Star can help produce more wins. I was at Yonkers racino several nights ago and was able to produce a 36 roll hand. I sevened out on the 37th roll. I used the loop (also known on the machine as "lob") and throw method with a very mild force, always trying to aim for the mixing bowl, off center. I had sevened out previously on a 10 number roll. Note how there is a relative absence of a 5 or less roll seven out. I'm not saying that you won't 7 out in 2 or 3 rolls. That will happen. I'm pointing out a reduction in those occurrences. And in Yonkers several days ago, I rolled an 11, 7, 11, 11, 11, 11, 7 in succession on the come out roll using the All 7's set. Also the 6/5, 5/6 set works fairly well when early 7 outs are frequent. You can find dice sets on the "Wizard of Odds" sister website to this one, and on DiceCoach.com. There are other sites as well, I'm sure. The 2V and 3V sets work well at times until the machine seems to catch on to your set, then there will be frequent 7 outs. So change your sets every so other roll. I have found that for "Don't" or "Wrong" betting, that is betting against the "right side", on making the point or throwing 7 or 11s on the come out roll, does not work well for the Vegas Star. Too many times I have seen the machine appear to follow the don't bets, making them lose. The only way around this occasionally is to not be a shooter when don't betting. In other words, pass the dice by unchecking the little box in the lower left of the terminal screen. This also brings to mind that better winning results can be had by playing at a Vegas Star that has 3 or more players. But I have had decent wins playing by myself, but only by betting the "right side" (making a Pass Line bet, etc) and using the shooting techniques described earlier. Another thing worth noting that the Vegas Star minimum bets are: In Resort World, Queens NY is $10 with only one table available. There used to be 2 tables, one $5 and the other $10. The Organic craps min is $15. Yonkers, Westchester County is $5 min with 2 $5 tables. One has Stickman sound, the other does not. Monticello, NY is $2 min with one 4 terminal machine. I don't know what the min is for Saratoga Springs, never having had played craps there. We did visit there several years ago one time, before I knew how to play craps. Well, that about does it in covering all that is relevant. I will contribute small additional comments of anything else that is worth saying. Please add your own helpful comments, especially the NY state players. There is nothing like the actual craps table. Pennsylvania now has legal live table games, including craps. We only play the Vegas Star so that we don't have to travel 2 1/2 hours or more, while keeping in tune and practice with craps. Thanks to all.

BillyT
BillyT Jul 12, 2015

I'm back to add more info for the Shufflemaster Vegas Star Electronic Craps (E-Craps) game. This on-screen game can be found in all the NY State Casinos (Racinos) except what appears to be Tioga Downs, located toward western NY, off Route 17, near the towns of Tioga Center and Waverly. Tioga Downs is a small casino, smaller than any of the others. Their website indicates that they do have electronic roulette (also by Shufflemaster/Vegas Star) but not e-craps, not even Interblock's Organic Bubble E-Craps, which all the other NY state-run casinos have (including the Vegas Star e-craps). I was at the Monticello, NY racino recently and saw that they will be offering electronic blackjack very soon. I would imagine it would be a $2 or $5 minimum, but probably $2 because their e-roulette and e-craps have a $2 minimum. By the way, Monticello does not have the Interblock Organic e-craps currently, only a 4 player Vegas Star. Now back on the Vegas Star subject, I had found out from another player at Monticello that the latest record roll of 60 was accomplished by 3 separate players, and not by only one player. This might be the case in many instances when you see the Record Roll above 45 to 47 (approx.). I had previously thought that these hot rolls were always done by a single player. The way the multi-player roll happens is when a player might roll 25 successive times and make his/her point or come-out naturals several times, including the last roll. Then they leave the game and the roll stays up on the screen for the next player. Then that player makes his/her several points and come-out naturals and also leaves. Once again the roll list stays on the screen and the 3rd player picks up the shoot. The hand ends when the last shooter sevens out. Now the roll is a record roll, and displays in the lower right of the main display, along with the total number of hardways and craps and elevens. I have found that the more hardways and craps/elevens show during the roll, the more likely it will be a hot roll (30 rolls or above). More info to follow...

BillyT
BillyT Jul 19, 2015

Here are some images (photos) of the ShuffleMaster Vegas Star Electronic Craps:

















BillyT
BillyT Jul 19, 2015

Here are some images (photos) of the ShuffleMaster Vegas Star Electronic Craps:























BillyT
BillyT Jul 19, 2015

I apologize for the two blank comments above. I can't seem to get the four .jpg photos to appear in the comment. I followed the syntax in the "formatting codes" screen and also experimented, with no results. I assumed that the preview screen could not display images, but it's what you see is what you get. I also read in a search that the case (upper or lower) of the image file name and the path must match, and I've done that. Also, I don't know of any means of deleting the blank messages. Could someone help out on this? Thanks.

BillyT
BillyT Jul 21, 2015

Presently, I cannot provide photos on this website blog to get you familiar with the Vegas Star Electronic Craps. However, you can visit www.crapsforum.com and locate my Bill Tn, NY State Casino Vegas Star E-Craps blog under the Introductions category. The 4 photos were posted on Wednesday, July 15th 2015 at 9:03 AM. You will also find 2 pages of various replies about the Vegas Star.



Now some ideas about playing strategy, a few recommended books and dice sets that work much of the time. I know that the dice sets "tend to work" because when the 10 second throw timer runs out and I either don't have the dice set correctly or I am not able to control the direction and type of throw, the dice usually show a random result, or they seven out.



From observing enough players in the past, I recommend only 2 ways of betting the layout for a maximum chance for notable winnings. The first is a "right side" method and the second is a "wrong side" or "back line" method. They come from Sam Grafstein's The Dice Doctor book, available from Amazon.com for about $12. I cannot provide the steps (or "moves" as he calls them), because that would result in very long comments here. The right side is called the Play #11: The Stretch Play, in the Right Bettor section Pages 155 to 159, and the wrong side is called Play #6: The Mrs. Dice Doctor's Wrong Betting Play "A": Flat Betting and Play #7: The Mrs. Dice Doctor's Wrong Betting Play "B": Laying Odds, in the Wrong Bettor section Pages 196 to 202. Play #6 and Play #7 in the Wrong Bettors section are the same play, with #6 describing the moves and Play #7 describing the same method, but with the laying of single odds on the Don't Pass line. It appears that you do not lay odds with the Don't Come bets.



The methods mentioned above are also especially very good for the actual, live table. I also like Stanford Wong's, Wong on Dice book and John Patrick's books, although John Patrick does recommend "protecting" your pass line bet of $15 and higher with a 3 way craps bet. That is not a recommended strategy among knowlegable craps players on the actual table, but with the Vegas Star it might be considered to use, because of the high frequency of the 2 to 5 roll seven out hand. Another good author is Frank Scoblete who has published several books on craps.



Many players like to bet the Hardways, but it only works sometimes on the Vegas Star, especially on the come out roll. But, now you would be risking the loss of the Hardway bet, because of a winning 7 on the come out roll.



With the Vegas Star only (and not on the actual table!), I have found that the Horn bet may allow one to increase their bankroll quickly, before the brief hand ends in a 7 out. The way I came up with is at follows: Bet $4 on the Horn on the Come Out Roll, then when (and only when) you see a 2, 3 ,11 or 12 appear, should you bet another $4. Now optionally, if that bet loses, next immediately bet $6 on the Horn. If that bet loses, you can bet either $4 or $6 again a third time, and you are done betting the Horn until another 2, 3, 11, or 12 (red numbers) appear, then bet the sequence again. The reasons for my suggestion on this is because I have seen many times a red number appear, followed by a box number (4,5,6,8,9,10), then a red number, then a box number for several rolls. I have also seen a string of 2 to 5 red numbers appear in succession more than occasionally. Remember, these are suggested moves ONLY for the Vegas Star.



Dice sets that seem to produce good results on the Right Side more often than not are the 6/5, 5/6 (for the come out roll, covered by the Horn bet, or Field bet because the 6/5, 5/6 set produces many field numbers), the 6/5, 4/6, the 6/5, 5/4, the 6/5, 4/4, the 6/5, 3/3, the 1/1, 5/5, the 2V, the 3V, and the All 7's set (on the come out roll Pass Line bet only, no cover bet necessary). If all the 6/5 or 2V and 3V sets are not successful in producing longer than 9 rolls, then try the Hardway Set. Sometimes this set sevens out quickly due to a possible double pitch of the dice (4 ways for a 7), but sometimes you can produce about 18 rolls from the set. On the Wrong Side (Don't Pass, etc. bets), I have had acceptable results by using the 6/6, 2/2 (or straight 6's) set, and the 1/1, 2/5 set. But I generally recommend that you pass up the dice (you don't throw) when betting the Wrong Side, by unchecking the box at the lower left of the player's terminal. You also need at least 2 other players who are throwing the dice besides yourself if you pass up the dice.



You can see many of these sets by going to www.DiceCoach.com. Another useful site is www.Crapspit.org. There you will find many alternative playing strategies from player members of the blog, although they are referring to plays on the actual table. The theme of this website is that dice setting is a scam and does not work any better than random rolling. That is fine and acceptable if that is their view, but I have truly seen how dice setting improves chances of winning, if not only for an orderly and clean throwing method.



Recently, I have noticed that when rolling the dice on the Vegas Star (right side betting), if you aim the dice toward either the right upper corner or the left upper corner near the top of the players display, where the white lines cross, and that could be a sweet spot many times. That will usually put the dice in or near the curved mixing bowls, which I recommend for the Vegas Star ONLY. Throwing the dice at the center of the rear wall usually produces an early 7 out. The one exception that I have seen occasionally is when the player uses the "Throw" button on his terminal. You can either set the dice (recommended) or let the dice remain as the machine presents them. Recall that I have covered dice throwing in the earlier dated comments. Well, take care for now. More info may follow, if I come across additional useful items.

BillyT
BillyT Jul 21, 2015

Add on: You may be able to find at least some of the books I mentioned at your local library. Good luck in rolling the dice and take care.

BillyT
BillyT Jul 23, 2015

You might be able to do a search on your local library's website to see if they have any of the books. I believe you do not have to be registered with a library card to do the search.



Here's an enhancement to rolling the dice on the player's terminal, which I found out recently while playing Craps. When placing your two first fingers on each die, include your middle finger between the 1st and 2nd fingers. This will help to keep the dice set in the intended way, so that they don't tilt forward or backward, which would deter the "set" toss from being nearly perfect. A bit more precise control is gained by rolling this way. Since I have been doing this, I have had several instances where I rolled the point 3 times consecutively. When you see repeatability, that indicates something that helps your game.



Also I noticed many times that if a 12 is rolled, a 7 ( or maybe an 11) will immediately (or soon) follow, especially on the come out roll. That is a piece of advice to help protect "Wrong Side" bets on the Don't Pass line, and maybe also clue "Right Side" bettors for the Pass Line. I couldn't believe it when I actually saw a 7 rolled immediately after a 12 on the come out. That's advice from Sam Grafstein's book.



I will post additional info if it might be useful. Good Luck and take care.

BillyT
BillyT Jul 23, 2015

Correction:



I apologize, the finger placement on the virtual dice are as follows:



Your 1st and 3rd fingers now touch the dice, and the middle finger is placed in between the dice, lightly touching the players terminal screen.



Thanks for your continued support.

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