DRich
DRich
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June 4th, 2016 at 7:30:32 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Odyssey multi game slot/VP machines were fairly innovative. IMO they were better than anything IGT had at the time. If I was going to purchase a slot machine I would probably go for one of them.

Did they get bought out by IGT?



I had a Silicon Gaming Odyssey machine but when I moved it was so heavy and awkward to move that I just gave it away. I kind of regret that now.

Yes, IGT did buy Silicon Gaming but they only did so to acquire some I.P. The company was already pretty much dead at that point.

I did some contract work for Silicon Gaming in the 1990's.
Order from chaos
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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June 4th, 2016 at 10:19:36 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Does anyone remember Hot Reels multi-line slots you held symbols and drew. They were set over 100% and very fun as well. (they lacked a bonus round).

I'm not sure if Silicon made them or not. I can't find any information on them.

Robert Winter has some Odyssey info on his site:

http://www.robertwinter.com/slot/odyssey/

And yes, Silicon did make Hot Reels. Specifically, I did -- that was one of the games I designed. I had to integrate Excel with an external DLL too, that was a pain.

I don't recall doing a model over 100%, though it was a long time ago so I could be mistaken. We weren't trying to make a VP-like game, the goal was to have a typical slot hold. Many of the strategy plays were obvious, but not all of them, so I think I figured about 3-4% suboptimal play from the typical player. The true (optimal) hold was about 4% and therefore the expected hold was about 7-8%. Of course, it wasn't dealt out of a known deck like VP so you'd never be able to discern the optimal play without knowing the reels, and that requires either looking at the par sheet or reverse engineering. I recall it performed about where we wanted it to at least from a percentage standpoint. By late 1999 we were running into hardware issues with the CRTs so we had less win/day than we should have.

I did the initial models for 3 Reel Hold-Up too, and that one survived and still lives online at various IGT Interactive casinos.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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June 4th, 2016 at 10:25:02 AM permalink
Quote: DRich

Yes, IGT did buy Silicon Gaming but they only did so to acquire some I.P. The company was already pretty much dead at that point.

I did some contract work for Silicon Gaming in the 1990's.

Specifically, Silicon had just inked the deal for The Price Is Right, beating out IGT in the process. As I recall, IGT's offer to acquire SGIC came within 3 days. And you're right, the company was on its last legs. We had defaulted on our debt and the stock had cratered.

Most of the company was spun off into WagerWorks and moved to San Francisco, then five years later WagerWorks was also acquired by IGT, turned into their online RMG group, and then rebranded as IGT Interactive.

Which games did you work on?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
DRich
DRich
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June 4th, 2016 at 10:58:38 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist



Which games did you work on?



My work was on the back end helping to design the wide area progressive.
Order from chaos
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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June 4th, 2016 at 6:21:58 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Robert Winter has some Odyssey info on his site:

http://www.robertwinter.com/slot/odyssey/

And yes, Silicon did make Hot Reels. Specifically, I did -- that was one of the games I designed. I had to integrate Excel with an external DLL too, that was a pain.

I don't recall doing a model over 100%, though it was a long time ago so I could be mistaken. We weren't trying to make a VP-like game, the goal was to have a typical slot hold. Many of the strategy plays were obvious, but not all of them, so I think I figured about 3-4% suboptimal play from the typical player. The true (optimal) hold was about 4% and therefore the expected hold was about 7-8%. Of course, it wasn't dealt out of a known deck like VP so you'd never be able to discern the optimal play without knowing the reels, and that requires either looking at the par sheet or reverse engineering. I recall it performed about where we wanted it to at least from a percentage standpoint. By late 1999 we were running into hardware issues with the CRTs so we had less win/day than we should have.

I did the initial models for 3 Reel Hold-Up too, and that one survived and still lives online at various IGT Interactive casinos.

its been somany years now but I'm 99.9% sure on top of the games they advertised over 100% return. I think they said 101%/102%.

I know I had a strategy card for 2 different versions. Yellow and pink Version?

I remember comparing 2 strategies made by 2 different people and they were the same.

Played them at many places espesilly heavy at the Rio including points comps and mail. Circus Circus IIRC they had at least 1% cash plus comps I can't remember if they did much mail. The Hard Rock was paying double TOP LINE Slots only jackpots. I can't even remember what the cycle was or what it paied.

Even without all the extra stuff the over all results were good.

Eventully a few other AP's were hitting them hard as well.

It would make sense that they would set them that high concidering the average person would have a hard time playing them without tons of mistakes since it's not obvious like video poker. How the heck would someone know if they should hold a wild and a red seven or a flag. A dealt wild and mixed sparkplugs or just the wild?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
cwazy
cwazy
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June 5th, 2016 at 12:31:08 AM permalink
A long time ago I wrote a bot for playing Bejewled for money at Worldwinner.com.. It was a relatively simple matter to have it classify the various symbols that appeared on the screen on the fly. It would essentially just take a screenshot, and analyze each symbol to see if it had already seen other symbols that were similar within a specified tolerance on the screen. If the symbol was outside of the similarity tolerance for any symbol already in the classification library, it was considered a new symbol. I got this down to 100% accuracy. Once all of the symbols on the screen were classified, it was a simple matter to figure out the best possible move, and then automatically move the mouse to make the move - all within milliseconds. The only issue with this was that Worldwinner quickly stops matching you with other players the more games you win, and eventually your tournaments simply never close and you stop making money.

Anyway, it seems to me that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to utilize a similar technique to write software that could very rapidly map out any video slot machine. Use either a smart phone camera or a hidden camera to snap photos of completed spins. You would basically just push the take photo button after each spin. The photo would be sent to an app on a phone, that would do the analysis and not only map the reels, but be able to tell you precisely when you had all symbols mapped so that you don't need to do even 1 extra spin.

Does something like this already exist? I might try this, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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June 5th, 2016 at 2:12:03 AM permalink
Quote: cwazy

A long time ago I wrote a bot for playing Bejewled for money at Worldwinner.com.. It was a relatively simple matter to have it classify the various symbols that appeared on the screen on the fly. It would essentially just take a screenshot, and analyze each symbol to see if it had already seen other symbols that were similar within a specified tolerance on the screen. If the symbol was outside of the similarity tolerance for any symbol already in the classification library, it was considered a new symbol. I got this down to 100% accuracy. Once all of the symbols on the screen were classified, it was a simple matter to figure out the best possible move, and then automatically move the mouse to make the move - all within milliseconds. The only issue with this was that Worldwinner quickly stops matching you with other players the more games you win, and eventually your tournaments simply never close and you stop making money.

Anyway, it seems to me that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to utilize a similar technique to write software that could very rapidly map out any video slot machine. Use either a smart phone camera or a hidden camera to snap photos of completed spins. You would basically just push the take photo button after each spin. The photo would be sent to an app on a phone, that would do the analysis and not only map the reels, but be able to tell you precisely when you had all symbols mapped so that you don't need to do even 1 extra spin.

Does something like this already exist? I might try this, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

sounds interesting and I would like to have it. Im not sure if getting caught with it would cause problems. I don't care if it's legal or not it's not worth getting 86ed over.

Also....
The problem is...most slot machines deal with bonus rounds, they have all kinds of animations, many levels, screens, pick this pick that.. How is it going to calculate that? It may help cut down the work involved and the person can keep track of it separately.

If this is something that is mainly used on 3 reels regular slots like Blazing sevens well there's enough information regarding them slots. One just need to track the one they are playing to get a good idea and a hidden video of the game taken home and calculated will do just fine.

Very few people would be interested in this even if it worked on all slots. So there wouldn't be much profit. If you cage to much AP'so won't pay.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
ThatDonGuy
ThatDonGuy 
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June 5th, 2016 at 7:42:54 AM permalink
Quote: cwazy

A long time ago I wrote a bot for playing Bejewled for money at Worldwinner.com.. It was a relatively simple matter to have it classify the various symbols that appeared on the screen on the fly. It would essentially just take a screenshot, and analyze each symbol to see if it had already seen other symbols that were similar within a specified tolerance on the screen. If the symbol was outside of the similarity tolerance for any symbol already in the classification library, it was considered a new symbol. I got this down to 100% accuracy. Once all of the symbols on the screen were classified, it was a simple matter to figure out the best possible move, and then automatically move the mouse to make the move - all within milliseconds. The only issue with this was that Worldwinner quickly stops matching you with other players the more games you win, and eventually your tournaments simply never close and you stop making money.

Anyway, it seems to me that it wouldn't be much of a stretch to utilize a similar technique to write software that could very rapidly map out any video slot machine. Use either a smart phone camera or a hidden camera to snap photos of completed spins. You would basically just push the take photo button after each spin. The photo would be sent to an app on a phone, that would do the analysis and not only map the reels, but be able to tell you precisely when you had all symbols mapped so that you don't need to do even 1 extra spin.

Does something like this already exist? I might try this, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel.


Would you need to take photos? If you had a camera that captured video, then just capture the wheels as they spin.

Of course, such a strategy has limited use with a single-line machine, as you can't determine how many virtual stops each symbol has.
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
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June 5th, 2016 at 8:28:58 AM permalink
Quote: ThatDonGuy

Would you need to take photos? If you had a camera that captured video, then just capture the wheels as they spin.

Of course, such a strategy has limited use with a single-line machine, as you can't determine how many virtual stops each symbol has.



Even with video machines, the animations don't always match the actual reels. The ones that do use the actual reels will start spinning with the previous reel stops and then switch over to the reels leading up to the next reel stops. This sometimes leads to graphical glitches such as displaying two identical stacked symbols which don't ever appear stacked in that game.

Still, I have been able to determine the exact reels for video machines using high speed video.
I heart Crystal Math.
MathExtremist
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June 5th, 2016 at 10:03:51 AM permalink
Quote: cwazy

Does something like this already exist? I might try this, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel.

There are probably hundreds of hours of video footage of slot gameplay already on YouTube. You don't need to play at all in order to map reels if someone else has already posted sufficient footage.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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