FrGamble
FrGamble
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March 20th, 2014 at 7:55:20 PM permalink
teliot is completely backwards in his argument.

It is only a very small part of the Bible that one could take to show a God very harsh on sin, the vast majority of the Bible is one of compassion, love, and forgiveness culminating in the person of Jesus Christ. Likewise it boggles my mind how one could be so biased and blind as to overlook all the good Christianity has done throughout human history, which is truly unmatched by any other institution, religion, or philosophy.
Nareed
Nareed
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March 20th, 2014 at 7:58:43 PM permalink
Quote: teliot

This may be an accurate description of a small part of what the Bible says, but it is not consistent with the history of Christianity in any way nor with a far greater part of the Bible. Christianity has a history of brutality and violence that is unmatched. The old testament Christian god seems to not take the 10 commandments very seriously -- at the very least, that god had a murderous streak.



And I thought I was hostile to religion.

Now, how do I top this.... ;)
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beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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March 21st, 2014 at 6:50:22 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

teliot is completely backwards in his argument.

It is only a very small part of the Bible that one could take to show a God very harsh on sin, the vast majority of the Bible is one of compassion, love, and forgiveness culminating in the person of Jesus Christ. Likewise it boggles my mind how one could be so biased and blind as to overlook all the good Christianity has done throughout human history, which is truly unmatched by any other institution, religion, or philosophy.



Sorry, FrGamble, but I think teliot has a much more accurate description of God's depiction in the Bible. You don't even have to cherrypick it, but some outstanding examples are the Flood with wholesale genocide, genocide again in Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot also giving his daughters up to be gang raped, 42 children killed for mocking Elijah's bald head, Passover plagues bringing famine and huge death counts to Egypt, on and on. I mean, really; a holiday celebrating the killing of all non-believing firstborn? Then in the post-Christ era, you have the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Line of Demarkation in the Americas, and the common practice worldwide of sending in priests with warriors to subjugate the natives of new lands into Christianity. The end does not justify the means.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
FrGamble
FrGamble
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March 21st, 2014 at 7:24:06 AM permalink
Sorry Babs, but your depiction of the Bible is very inaccurate. Without going into the verses you mentioned and the reasons why God does indeed sometimes deal harshly with the sins of groups of people who oppress, harm, enslave, and kill the innocent - I hope you realize the small sampling of verses and stories you did cherrypick and prooftext are vastly outnumbered by the stories of mercy, love, compassion, and service. Likewise the Feast of the Holy Innocents, is a lamentation for those innocent children killed by an evil dictator in his pursuit to hunt down Christ.
Likewise, in your brief history of Christianity the evils you mention are also representative of brief periods in history and are as usual exaggerated. These awful and sinful acts of Christians are not even close to giving the whole picture of the countless good men and women who have and still today do so much good.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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March 21st, 2014 at 7:48:29 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble

You should read Mark's Gospel, it is the shortest one. Throughout the Gospel Jesus is constantly telling people he heals or drives out demons from not to go around spreading this news. Scholars call it the "Messianic Secret". There is only one time when someone claims Jesus to be the Son of God when there is no response and that is the centurion at the cross who looked up at Jesus says, "Surely, this man was the Son of God." Jesus does not want you to believe in Him because of His miracles, but rather because of His willingness to sacrifice His life for you.

If all it would take for you to believe in Jesus is someone to change water into wine or walk on water then frankly maybe its better if you keep searching. Christianity is full of miracles but its foundation is Love; all encompassing, unconditional, forever type of LOVE and this is the greatest miracle of all.

Before we can even go any further lets Separate God from Jesus. I know most religions say God and Jesus are one in the same spiritually. But, for all we know Jesus is a false profit and has pulled the biggest con of all times. God may be watching and thinking we(people who believe in Jesus) are all fools. I know some religions believe in God but not Jesus. What makes them wrong?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Mosca
Mosca 
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March 21st, 2014 at 7:53:18 AM permalink
Quote: teliot

This may be an accurate description of a small part of what the Bible says, but it is not consistent with the history of Christianity in any way nor with a far greater part of the Bible. Christianity has a history of brutality and violence that is unmatched. The old testament Christian god seems to not take the 10 commandments very seriously -- at the very least, that god had a murderous streak.



I am not a Christian apologist. My take is that the brutality and violence would have occurred with or without Christianity; it is a condition of humanity. Layer humanity with whatever set of rules and mores you want, and you will get the same thing. Good people will be good, bad people will be bad.

Religion is powerless to affect humans individually. Religion is powerless to affect humanity. But there will be people who have to believe, and people who cannot believe. Our challenge is not for our side to win, but to move forward under those conditions.
NO KILL I
Nareed
Nareed
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March 21st, 2014 at 7:53:40 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I know most religions say God and Jesus are one in the same spiritually.



One (1) religion says that.
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Nareed
Nareed
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March 21st, 2014 at 8:03:28 AM permalink
Quote: Mosca

Religion is powerless to affect humans individually. Religion is powerless to affect humanity.



Quite the contrary. Religion, as a philosophical system, wields enormous influence on individuals and humanity as a whole. the more comprehensive and detailed religions exert even more influence on believers at all levels.

European history from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance is largely indistinguishable from the history of Christianity. Belief matters a great deal, and so does the practices of religion. Even in the Renaissance the dominant conflict was between Catholics and Protestants. What changed since then was the demotion, well-deserved, of religion from the power sturctures of nation-states, which not incidentally coincides with the rise of nationalism.

While there are good and bad people regardless of their beliefs, the atrocities commited under religious belief are particualrly troublesome. See, you get things like wholesale murder and torture, as in the Crusades and the Inquisition, carried out as the greatest good and unertaken with righteous zeal. This is unmatched by anything secular regimes can do, except for totalitarian ones (which are quasi-religious in nature, complete with worship, ritual and theological-like ideologies).
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AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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March 21st, 2014 at 8:18:13 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

One (1) religion says that.

I doubt that only one teaches that. that would be insane to think that since there or are so many different religions . I may have went over board when saying MOST. To be clear im not saying they believe they are the same enity or being. I'm just saying that when they talk about, what Jesus wants, it would be what god wants and visa versa. When i ask about why God did or didn't do something, I don't want someone to answer with the reason Jesus did or didn't do something. I assume when Jesus "did miracles" it was directed by GOD. I doubt any REAL Miracles ever took place in the first place most things, like the red sea parting, can possibly be explained by science and nature. Then again, the burnt part of my toast this morning, did look a bit like an Marry.Who do I call?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Face
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Face
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March 21st, 2014 at 8:24:26 AM permalink
Quote: FrGamble


Likewise, in your brief history of Christianity the evils you mention are also representative of brief periods in history and are as usual exaggerated.



Careful. I'm not sure that's the best course to take.

I don't deny that religion provides good. You have given countless examples. But to discount the atrocity is to discount people and the suffering they have gone through. That can't be right.

If today were the year 1256, one might look at the devastating weather around us and blame a heretic. A heretic like Nareed. And one would put her in the rack and pull her until limbs separated from her body. That's just one incident. But how big would it be to Nareed? To her family and loved ones?

And this went on for centuries. Not a week, or a month, but hundreds of years. I see neither "brief" nor "exaggerated", a see a serious offense to everything good. And not only was it wrong to do something like that, its very premise was wrong. Nareed and her lack of faith does not influence the weather. Any way you slice it, it was completely wrong, completely false, and completely done in the name of religion.

While you accuse Babs of cherry picking the horrors, it seems you also want to cherry pick in your lack of acceptance of them. Yes, religion does good. But if you take that, you must also take the bad.
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