RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
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June 4th, 2015 at 8:46:58 AM permalink
Quote: waasnoday

I work as a Internal Auditor for the gaming commission that is charged with regulating our gaming facilities. While I will agree that there have been instances of abuse, I would like to point out that this is fairly rare and the same issues seen in tribal casinos can also be found in other non-tribal casinos. There have been bad apples but in general the games offered at tribal casinos are as fair as the one offered in non-tribal casinos. As far as oversight goes, you should be aware that there is oversight by the NIGC and also by the state that tribal casino resides in. What that means in my state is that the gaming operations are audited three times per year. We are required by federal law to have an independent CPA firm audits our financials and our procedures that support the NIGC MICS. The state also sends in representatives from their gaming commission to also audit us. That also includes a financial audit and a review of policies that are governed by the state compact. Along with those two audits, I also run an audit to determine our adherence to the NIGC and tribal MICS, TICS and SICS. This also does in include a audit of our finances and adherence to GAAP. The only people we "backroom" are MIPS who we hold until either their parents or police show up. As far as customer disputes go, I have not seen one in over five years and the state has not approached us with any customer disputes that I know of.

With that being said I do not agree with the court ruling but do believe the courts hands were tied in this matter. Tribal sovereignty was used as a defense and the courts agreed with it. I am of the opinion that cases like this hurt all tribes and that sovereignty should not be used in this manner. This whole mess really should never have risen to this level. If you as a table games manager are unaware of edge-sorting then you should be looking for another job. This and the other edge-sorting cases are just ridiculous. If you get burned on your floor because you allowed a player to dictate terms that allowed for this type of play then you deserve to loose and to loose big.

(edited. added and r and dropped an o)



Isn't the state audit more focused on making sure the state is getting their fair share of the revenues collected? In other words, the state is auditing to make sure the state is not getting cheated. It is my guess the state audit doesn't really try to figure out if the players are getting cheated.

I do agree with you that most tribal casinos are completely legit, and it is only a few that cast a bad light on all tribal casinos, but this case does show at least one of the potential pitfalls of gaming on tribal lands.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
waasnoday
waasnoday
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June 4th, 2015 at 9:22:21 AM permalink
Quote: RaleighCraps

Isn't the state audit more focused on making sure the state is getting their fair share of the revenues collected? In other words, the state is auditing to make sure the state is not getting cheated. It is my guess the state audit doesn't really try to figure out if the players are getting cheated.

I do agree with you that most tribal casinos are completely legit, and it is only a few that cast a bad light on all tribal casinos, but this case does show at least one of the potential pitfalls of gaming on tribal lands.



Yah the state loves to gets its hands on the revenue. In our case they do look at other areas but I will admit that it really depends on who they send. One crew was darn thorough but a crew several years back were not quite so good. In general they do a decent job I think. I know they are definitely looking at game play from the documents they request. They also look into other areas such as Title 31, underage drinking and exclusion lists. The external independent audit definitely is a lot more though. The state will take a couple days to a week whereas the externals will be here for two weeks at a time and usually twice a year.

Thank you for your last comment. I follow several boards and the negativity toward tribal casinos can be pretty depressing at times. I cannot speak for all auditors and gaming commission members, but for the most part the ones I have met take their jobs very seriously and in general try to be as fair and impartial as possible. From my experience the greatest issue has not been unfair/gaffed games so much as the politics behind the scenes between the councils and the gaming commissions.
waasnoday
waasnoday
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June 4th, 2015 at 9:39:45 AM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I disagree, BBB. No offense, to waasnoday. I appreciate his insight, but he is mostly talking about financial audits and oversight, where we are concerned with no oversight as far as an agency like a casino commission that handles complaints and hopefully takes a serious look at things like cheating. In the case of Indian casinos, they have such a agency usually, by whatever name they want to assign it, but it's basically a case of the fox looking after the hen house. You are not getting any kind of impartial oversight, monitoring or investigation.



No offense taken kewlj, I totally understand your concern. I think you may begin to see a more active role by the NIGC in oversight of tribal casinos. There has been some movement by congress asking for this and I am waiting to see the results of the GAO audit of the NIGC. Some tribes like mine would welcome that in hopes it would help to dismiss some of the public fears. That is not the opinion all tribes though so we will most likely see some fight against what many tribes see as federal encroachment. Personally I would love to see some sort of public dispute system in place at the NIGC level.

Thank you BBB for the comment. I know the people are generally unaware of the regulatory structure behind tribal casinos and hope I can at least shed some light occasionally.
waasnoday
waasnoday
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June 4th, 2015 at 9:55:52 AM permalink
Should have browsed the news before commenting. The GAO has released the audit report of the NIGC and you can find it at this link if interested. Haven't read it yet but the article I read indicated more oversight by the NIGC was needed and I would agree with that.

http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-15-355
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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June 4th, 2015 at 10:56:10 AM permalink
Quote: vendman1

I've never suspected a land based casino of cheating or shaving the rules in any way.

Maybe more skepticism is in order. Especially after the almost similar case of the Atlantic City 14 at the Golden Nugget, part of a large casino chain based in Las Vegas. To quote the esteemed Dr. Eliot Jacobson for a couple of grafs, including the judge's opinion:

"Up until the Phil Ivey vs. Crockford’s case was resolved last October, it would have been reasonable to assume that if the Atlantic City 14 were legally seated at the table, playing by the rules and conditions offered by the casino, using the cards and other equipment provided by the casino, then an implicit contract had been made and they should be able to keep any money they won. But the final ruling in the Ivey/Crockford’s case changed everything. What Justice John Mitting ruled was that,

“It was not simply taking advantage of error on her (the dealer’s) part or an anomaly practiced by the casino for which he (Ivey) was not responsible. He was doing it in circumstances where he knew that she and her superiors did not know the consequences of what she had done at his instigation. This is, in my view, cheating for the purpose of civil law.”

This was a precedent setting ruling. Players could be found to have cheated (in a civil sense) at gambling even though they were playing by the policies and procedures set by the house, using the cards and equipment supplied by the house, and did not consider what they were doing to be cheating at the game. Justice Mitting’s argument was at once both stunning and reasonable. It was stunning that Mitting did not hold Crockford’s accountable for the deficiencies in their operations. It was reasonable when considered in the context of cheating at social games like chess and bridge."
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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June 4th, 2015 at 12:42:56 PM permalink
At a second glance, the judge is saying the casino is not responsible for its own ineptitude and/or ignorance. Talk about letting perpetrators and idiots off the hook! And so much for the supposed brains behind the Landrys operation. One might expect a lot more from such operators than from an untrained group of ambitious tribesmen.
Deck007
Deck007
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June 7th, 2015 at 5:29:13 AM permalink
Let me say off the bat that I am not a lawyer.
But I find the title of the article is very misleading. DISMISS.
It seems to imply that the case has no merit.
This has nothing to do with the merit of the case and is a mute point.
This is a case of jurisdiction. The case is the same if it had happen in Canada or Mexico.
The US judge has no say or jurisdiction on this case in the sovereign nation of native Americans.

The outcome of the case in England has also little credence in a similar case in NJ, USA. Laws are written differently and judges interpret the same laws differently.
LuckyPhow
LuckyPhow
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October 7th, 2016 at 10:21:16 AM permalink
Quote: Deck007



But I find the title of the article is very misleading. DISMISS.
It seems to imply that the case has no merit.
This has nothing to do with the merit of the case and is a mute point.
This is a case of jurisdiction.



Deck,

Apparently, the most recent court decision confirms exactly your comment:

https://news.worldcasinodirectory.com/chinese-trio-lose-appeal-against-foxwood-resorts-casino-confiscation-35654

Sure would be nice if there was a higher-level oversight review process when Indian casinos lie, cheat, or steal. (But, then again, those who took their land did all that and more. Filthy pots shouldn't point to dirty pans.)
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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October 7th, 2016 at 1:07:51 PM permalink
When seeking a 'fix' many people go to the nearest 'pusher'.
MrV
MrV
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October 7th, 2016 at 1:51:45 PM permalink
Quote: LuckyPhow

Sure would be nice if there was a higher-level oversight review process when Indian casinos lie, cheat, or steal. (But, then again, those who took their land did all that and more. Filthy pots shouldn't point to dirty pans.)




Their ancestors got screwed many generations ago: the current crop of Indians are full-fledged American citizens.

Same thing with the nattering nabobs of niggativity at BLM demanding "reparations" to compensate for their ancestors being slaves.

That was then; this is now.
Last edited by: MrV on Oct 7, 2016
"What, me worry?"

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